What do you say about this Vicky, Leen? And it all started way, way, way before there was any occupation …

http://lindasog.com/public/terrorvictims.htm

1929, Hebron Massacre: Arab rioters killed 67 Jews in Hebron . Many of the dead were dismembered. Many incidents of rape were reported. Numerous homes were burned. The remaining Jewish community of Hebron fled to Jerusalem
April 19, 1936, Jaffa Massacre: Arab rioters attacked Jaffa and killed 16 Jews.
Jan 01, 1952 – Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem.
Apr 14, 1953 – Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One boat was intercepted and the other escaped.
Jun 07, 1953 – A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.
Jun 09, 1953 – Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.
Jun 10, 1953 – Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.
Jun 11, 1953 – Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.
Sep 02, 1953 – Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. Miraculously, no one was hurt.
Mar 17, 1954 – Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the site of the terrorist attack.

And it goes on to this very present day. I could not fit it all into this one post. Look at the link, those of you who have even a little bit of balanced perspective rather than a single minded hatred of Israel …

If European Jews hadn’t come here, there probably would be a Palestine, at least Palestinians would be living in their homeland from Al Mutelleh to Um Al Rashrash.

“Maybe then you’ll see that you are much better being in a conflict with Israel that with anyone else around.” This is a comparison and you are a hypocrite.

Your lack of decency (which is common among Zionists) is the real problem. Justice is your bitter enemy because it goes against your interests, myths and dirty project

You cannot shake of your responsibility. The conflict didn’t start at 1967 and so our sides are not of an evil oppressor or a helpless oppressed. But of two national movements in conflict.

If Jews hadn’t come here, there probably wouldn’t be a Palestine, and the Land of Israel would have been a part of Jordan or Syria. Given their great contributions to the world, please pardon me for not feeling regret.

I said that arguing whose crimes are larger is useless. When I mentioned Syria – I only wanted to give you an example of a state that actually does what you claim Israel is doing.

Your total lack of capability to view the world as anything but black and white and take any responsibility for the situation will only delay the solution. On the other hand, it doesn’t seem like you want a solution, only some perverted “justice” that involves the destruction of Israel and ethnic cleansing of Jews.

Through that occupation, the Israeli military exercises complete control over Palestinian daily life, which is why extremist settlers rarely feel a need to do worse than they do (although they have committed murders in the past, and destruction of property is common – with no sign of justice afterwards). Their interests are well-protected by the state and they already have what they want. Palestinian militant groups do not exercise this power over Israeli society, which is where your comparison falls down. There are no Palestinians ordering your home to be bulldozed, blocking your street, preventing the kids in your neighbourhood from accessing school, raiding your house in the middle of the night, confiscating parcels of land to build their own communities. The violence perpetrated by militant groups isn’t systemic in the same way and it doesn’t stem from a position of power. This does not mean that it isn’t bad, but that it is qualitatively different. It is only possible to make the argument that you are making if you are prepared to a.) sideline that issue of power and b.) invest blind faith in the Israeli army. I cannot in conscience look at the civilian death toll that they have racked up over the years and say, “But they didn’t mean it”, especially not as I encounter abusive army conduct as a matter of course through my daily work, and I am familiar with its routine use of collective punishment. Rabin’s ‘break their bones’ policy in the First Intifada is a chilling example of that.

As for whether the IDF is better or worse than any other army or any other occupier…I’m a pacifist for a reason. There is no such thing as a moral army, any more than there’s a vegan butcher or a kosher bacon sandwich. But this is irrelevant to the Palestinians who live under Israeli military control. Comparing the conduct of Israel’s occupation army to that of Chinese occupiers in Tibet might be some comfort to you, but then you don’t live under either of those regimes.

I also find it astonishing that you’re able to characterise Palestinian popular resistance (slingshots) as ‘pretty violent’ in the same comment in which you excuse phosphorus bombs as unintentional harm. Whenever anyone comments on the violence of Palestinian stone-throwin whilst defending or at least excusing the IDF, I am invariably reminded of lines from George Bernard Shaw’s ‘Pygmalion’: “And then you were surprised because she threw your slippers at you! *I* should have thrown the fire-irons at you.”

One national movement came from outside, from another continent ,to establish its own project at the expense of others.
If Palestine wasn’t chosen by the “chosen”, it would be another Arab country.

Its funny how you stated earlier that its useless to compare crimes or grievances ,yet you compare the crimes in Syria with the crimes in Palestine ! Unbelievable

I don’t always agree with Israel’s generals in their decisions or their choice of armaments. However, I fail to recall any attack by the IDF *intended* to kill civilians.
And so I don’t agree with your basic assumption – that Israel’s strikes are only intended to instill terror and destruction. One needs to view the IDF’s actions in comparison to those of other armies. Given that comparison, the IDF seems OK to me.

The idea that the only reason the evil settlers don’t actually terrorize Arabs that much is because there’s a state sponsored terror is simply absurd. Firstly, because I don’t think there is one. There’s harsh treatment, there’s a bad bureaucratic system and there are other things – but I really don’t think there’s a master plan to terrorize the population. You have to give people their due, this site goes to great length to glorify Palestinian “unarmed” resistance (which is still rather violent as far as I’m concerned) and I don’t hear you say – individual Palestinians don’t have to attack Jews because Hamas or some Shuhadazubi-Martyrs-Brigade does the job very well. So as long as you don’t hear about settler snipers killing children, or butchering entire families or firing rockets at school buses – please admit that in this regard, our extremest are much better then theirs.

Palestinian –

I don’t deny facts or history. There are shameful crimes on both sides and I agree that they are incomparable, it’s rather useless to compare crimes or grievances.

“You have started this conflict, not the opposite”.

That’s false. We did not start this conflict. The conflict started because two national movements competed on a single piece of land. It’s about time you’ll start taking responsibility for your actions and those of your leaders. There’s no black and white, right vs wrong or helpless Palestinians against evil Zionists.

“Israel is committing war crimes and terrorism on a daily basis.”

I urge you to take a good look at Syria. Not to wash Israel’s crimes or shift the discussion to another topic – just to understand what war crimes and terrorism really is. Maybe then you’ll see that you are much better being in a conflict with Israel that with anyone else around.

When you are backed by a sophisticated and highly equipped military that conducts state-sponsored terror, you will rarely feel a need to go beyond arson and beatings and vandalism, which is not to say that worse doesn’t happen. Settler violence has to be understood in the same context as state violence. The latter enables the former.

That said, I agree with XYZ’s definition of a pogrom and think it is inappropriate for this particular price tag attack, although there certainly have been acts of settler violence to which the term can safely be applied.

This is a remarkable statement, for it recognizes the right of land use for livelihood, and further explicitly states that this right must be enjoyed as part of the rule of law. I take this as evidence that 1) some Justices support protected rights in the Bank; 2) there is a feeling that the IDF refuses its charged mission for the rule of law.

This is the background thought necessary for the Court to eventually take its constitutional place. Which does nothing for the present and past grief endured by those denyed their land use.