32 comments for ”“Palestinian narrative of 1948 is not immune.” A response“

    
  1. Finally some reasonable comments for once!

  2. 
  3. Let’s assume the Zionists had not even thought of expelling the Palestinians. The refugees and their descendants now number 4.8 million, their numbers would not have gotten any lower had they remained in the land that is now called Israel. How exactly would the Zionists have ensured a Jewish majority in the “Jewish” state with at least six million Arabs instead of 1.4?

  4. 
  5. “In reference to your second point, I wrote that you (and Avishai) assume a ’shared authoritarian understanding that as Western liberal Zionists living in Israel [feel] they are the true “realistic, moderate progressives” who will solve the region’s problems’. Of course, I stand by the statement. I believe that your comment, in fact, strengthens my position since you have not discredited this reading of your work by engaging in the material I presented. While you might not have claimed this position in such explicit language, your body of work, taken as a whole demonstrates that moderate Zionists provide the most equitable solution to conflict’s problems.”

    This may be the best example of the pot calling the kettle black I have ever read.

  6. 
  7. Mr GORENBERG,
    .
    You write the following: “As a point of fact: I don’t live in Baka. I don’t believe it would be relevant if I did, for the same reason that I wouldn’t make an ad hominem argument against a Palestinian living in a formerly Jewish house in Sheikh Jarrah.”
    ..
    There is an factual mistake in your sentence.
    .
    There ware no Jewish houses on the Sheikh Jarrah’s land that is currently disputed in the Israeli tribunals.
    In other words, the houses that nowadays the settlers are trying to take from the Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah were built much later. Physically they didn’t exist in 1948, or earlier.
    .
    Land is one thing. Houses is another one.
    .
    So, no Palestinian is or was “living in a formerly Jewish house in Sheikh Jarrah.”
    .
    As an historian I would expect a more accurate clarification. Otherwise it is just “sloppy historiography”.

  8. 
  9. “I wouldn’t make an ad hominem argument against a Palestinian living in a formerly Jewish house in Sheikh Jarrah.”
    As a matter of fact dozens or hundreds of thousand of Jews are living in formerly Palestinian houses, while just a handful of Palestinians are living in formerly Jewish houses.
    That’ the reason why you look so flexible and relaxed about this issue.

  10. 
  11. Berl, it goes further: there’s no such thing as a Jewish house, a Muslim house, nor even – sadly – an atheist house. Ascribing political and cultural values to land and resources remains a time honoured means for furthering nationalist sentiments though. Now somebody show me a Christian brick and prove me wrong.

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  13. Talpiot is not “formerly Palestinian land.” The land consisting of residential Talpiot today was land purchased by Jews who build small cottages on their plots. No Palestinians lived there, no Palestinians were displaced or rendered homeless by this land sale. There are photos on line of the Talpiot cottages showing nothing but a barren landscape around them.

    The homes in East Jerusalem under dispute are homes that in fact WERE owned by Jews prior to 1948. The owners abandoned them when threatened by the Mufti’s armed gangs in the neighborhoods known as Shimon HaTzaddik and Sheik Jarrah. There are photos on line of the homes in Sheik Jarrah, which was a mixed Jewish-Arab neighborhood; Shimon HaTzaddik was almost entirely Jewish. In 1956, the Jordanian government moved 28 Palestinian families into Sheikh Jarrah who were displaced from their homes in Israeli-held Jerusalem during the Israeli War of Independence. As permanent ownership transfer was illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention, the area was placed under the jurisdiction of the Jordanian Custodian of Enemy Property. It would not have been place under the jurisdiction of the Custodian if the homes had not been owned by Jews living over the Green Line in Israel. After 1967, Jewish families sought to reclaim their homes but the Supreme Court ruled that the current Palestinian tenants could stay as long as they paid rent (called a protected tenancy). Ultimately, the Palestinian families evicted were those who refused to pay rent.

    The unfairness lies in the fact that Jews are in a position to seek return of their property but the Palestinians, due to the de facto state of hostilities between the two factions, are not in a position to regain title to or compensation for their properties in Baka and other Jerusalem suburbs. This is something that hopefully can be addressed in any final agreement, along with compensation for the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries (who btw made up the bulk of Baka’s population following the war).

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  15. Gershom, I don’t understand how you can look at Plan D and say that the assumption was that the Arabs would stay. Yes, I know all about the expressions of surprise at the ‘Arab flight’ by Sharet and so on, but Sharet was notoriously kept out of more… “hard-headed” plans.
    *
    You know that the people in Lod and Ramle were packed on trucks a full three days after the end of the battle, having surrendered. Add to that that civilians under international law have every right to flee advancing armies while retaining full residence and title, and you reach the inescapable conclusion that Ben Gurion and his mates had no intention of ending the war with a state in which the Arabs would be a majority or large minority. It’s really that simple. This is what you gloss over and which makes your narrative and analysis flawed.

  16. 
  17. CARL,
    .
    I agree with you that is not appropriate to write about “Muslim houses” or “Jewish houses”, expression first used by Gorenberg himself.
    .
    But I am sure that you agree if we say that these houses in Sheikh Jarrah were inhabited by Palestinians and by no one before them.
    I believe that this is an important clarification.
    .
    Gorenberg used an hypothetical form (“I WOULDN’T make an ad hominem argument against a Palestinian living in a formerly Jewish house in Sheikh Jarrah”), but what he implied with that sentence is not only historically wrong, but also morally unfair.

  18. 
  19. “There ware no Jewish houses on the Sheikh Jarrah’s land that is currently disputed in the Israeli tribunals.”
    *
    Um, that too is inaccurate. The current houses are built on the same spot as the originals. the land rights to the plots remain. There was title. But that is a mere technicality. What makes the Sheikh Jarrah issue so infuriating is that Israel and the settlers expect on one hand for 1948 to be a watershed moment in which thousands upon thousands irrevocably lost access to property west of the Green Line. At the same time, it wants to treat Jewish titles EAST of the Green Line as being utterly unaffected by the same “watershed moment”. That is Israel’s root hypocrisy in that matter. The fact that many of the families facing eviction in Sheikh Jarrah are in fact refugees from inside the Green Line WHO SIGNED WAIVERS OF THEIR REFUGEE STATUS in exchange for being settled in THOSE HOUSES is merely a cherry on top of the injustice cake.

  20. 
  21. SARAH WILLIAMS,
    .
    You made so many factual historical mistakes that it is difficult to explain all of them. I will just focus on your last mistake:
    “This is something that hopefully can be addressed in any final agreement, along with compensation for the 800,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries (who btw made up the bulk of Baka’s population following the war).”

    1)
    The Palestinians are not responsible for the expulsions that happened in other parts of the world. Palestinians and Iraqis and Egyptians are not the same people. I hope that you are aware of it.
    2)
    Many of the Jews that were expelled took the houses of the Palestinians. This is the reasons why they were quite easily absorbed and the Madbarot didn’t last long.
    If you go in Ein Houd or in Musrara, just two examples among hundreds, you will find thousands of Palestinian houses still perfectly preserved.

    3)
    It does not justify any possible kind of violence, but you should also mention that among the Jews that escaped from the Arab countries many did so in order to reach the “Jewish State” and others thanks to what Naemi Giladi called “Cruel Zionism”. Giladi was part of it and wrote about it:
    http://books.google.it/books?id=Mem7AAAAIAAJ&q=naeim+giladi+cruel+zionism&dq=naeim+giladi+cruel+zionism&hl=it&ei=asToTvnIEIbYsgbc-oi5Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA
    4)
    I could continue but for the time being I stop here. I hope that now you realize how superficial is to blame the Palestinians in that respect. They paid enough.

  22. 
  23. Talpiot was to the west of the “Green Line,” The Armistice line of 1949. S”Y Agnon lived there in his house, which surely was on the Israeli side.

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  25. There obviously was some sort of expulsion. The question is if it can be documented or not, and how legitimate these documents are…
    On the official level, the plan might have been in congruence with the propaganda: That Arabs would remain in the Jewish state as citizens and on their land. Unofficially, and on the military level, there may have been other sorts of ad hoc plans implemented. Obviously, those who instigated these expulsions preferred that the record remain ambiguous about it.
    But in principal, I do agree with Gorenberg. The official Arab narratives should be scrutinized and called into question as well..
    Most people who have opinions on the Israeli-Arab or Palestinian-Israeli conflict rely on facts which are informed by their predetermined opinions and ideologies.

  26. 
  27. RECHAVIA,
    “There ware no Jewish houses on the Sheikh Jarrah’s land that is currently disputed in the Israeli tribunals.”
    *
    “Um, that too is inaccurate. The current houses are built on the same spot as the originals.”.
    .
    You are wrong. The houses were built ex novo. No houses did stand previously on the houses that in the last few years have been taken from al-Hanoun and al-Ghawi families. It is not a secondary aspect.
    In the best possible scenario the settlers that took the al-Hanoun and al-Ghawi houses can claim that some sephardic organizations did own the soil. No one lived in that houses before these families.

    PS the houses in Sheikh Jarrah were inhabited by Palestinians and by no one before them. the Palestinians families that they are trying to kick out from their houses didn’t take the homes of any Jews before them. Moreover, as ownership issues goes Israelis will lose this argument , the Palestinians owned most of Israel and are denied claim on it. I

  28. 
  29. ARTH and SARAH WILLIAMS,
    A beautiful passage for you written by that a law level propagandist known as Edward Said:
    “My distinct recollection of Talbiyah, Katamon, and Upper and Lower Baqa’a from my earliest days there until my last was that they seemed to be populated exclusively by Palestinians, most of whom my family knew and whose names still ring familiarly in my ears—Salameh, Dajani, Awad, Khidr, Badour, David, Jamal, Baramki, Shammas, Tannous, Qobein—all of whom became refugees.”

  30. 
  31. Talpiot is not mentioned in that passage at all, which is the only neighborhood which I have discuss in my posts here. Other than that, I have no idea why this passage is relevant to what I have written in this thread.

  32. 
  33. Talpiyot and Talbiya are two different places. Talpiyot was founded in 1922 exactly as Ms Williams says, on empty land. What was Talbiya is still referred to as such by most Jerusalemites, though it’s official name is Qommemiyyut.

    But the debate is entirely moot. Gorenberg’s original point on that is sound.

    Naim Giladi’s claims are patently false and really are not even worth mentioning in any serious debate. Next you will be saying how Jews drink the blood of

  34. 
  35. JUMP,
    .
    I see that you play the “card” of antisemitism: quite typical.
    First I mentioned different points in order to underline why “Ms Williams” standpoint was flawed and unfair. You chose the last one because it was the most convenient.
    I don’t have a final answer about “Cruel Zionism”. But the fact that “Cruel Zionism” did exist is not “patently false”. Yehuda Tajar himslef did acknoledge that “his undercover cell was prepared to carry out such acts”.
    .
    Was Naeimi Giladi a lier because he didn’t fit your narrative or you have some proves about it? He was part of it, peraphs he knew better than you do.
    .
    Mutatis mutandis, also the Lavon Affair was considered unthinkable, but at the end we know that was true.
    .
    Ben Gurion’s biographer Shabtai Teveth quotes him as follows: “If I knew it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transporting them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.” (as quoted in “Ben Gurion and the Palestinian Arabs: from Peace to War (1985, p. 66).
    …..
    “Cruel Zionism” is a secondary aspect in the framework of our discussion. Even if it was true, it represented an “internal affair” that did not touch the Palestinians. These are the main points of our discussion:
    1)
    The Palestinians are not responsible for the expulsions that happened in other parts of the world. Palestinians and Iraqis and Egyptians are not the same people. I hope that you are aware of it.
    2)
    Many of the Jews that were expelled took the houses of the Palestinians. This is the reasons why they were quite easily absorbed and the Madbarot didn’t last long.
    If you go in Ein Houd or in Musrara, just two examples among hundreds, you will find thousands of Palestinian houses still perfectly preserved.

  36. 
  37. Berl your info is inaccurate. The titles those Sephardics had was for houses, not vacant plots. From earlier than the 1940′s, true, but valid titles nonetheless.

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  39. RECHAVIA,
    .
    I would be glad to have one document, one picture or something else that could prove what you are claiming.
    .
    Did the houses in the compound originally belong to Jews?
    “No. The houses in question were built during the Jordanian regime on an olive grove. They were proposed as a solution for accommodating
    Palestinian refugees who lost their homes in various parts of Israel in
    1948. The ownership of the lots is disputed.”
    http://www.en.justjlm.org/what-is-our-struggle-about/sheikh-jarrah-solidarity/faq-about-sheikh-jarrah

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  41. “There obviously was some sort of expulsion. The question is if it can be documented or not, and how legitimate these documents are.”
    *
    What, Plan D? That’s fact, documented and legitimate.

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  43. “I mention diaspora Palestinians who do this in the context of a more extensive critique of diaspora Jews who do the same. And I argue that fear of being associated with such an extreme position is no excuse for moderates to remain silent.”
    .
    Diaspora Jews shouldn’t remain silent even though they “risk” being associated with Diaspora Palestinians who are all extremist, huh? How kind of you.
    .
    You are so awash in your own privilege, you probably don’t even see how offensive and insulting that is. Yet this is why you or your ideological allies will continue to fail as you’ve done for the past 60+ years.
    .
    At its core, your ideology is about only what’s good for Israel and the Jews. There is no room for talk about what is good for Palestinians and how that should hold equal weight in the arguments. So you say things to the “moderates” (all of whom are Zionists, of course) like, “Being associated with Palestinians is a risk, but you have to take it for the sake of Israel.” And then you all lament the rightward trends in Israel, as if you aren’t responsible for it.
    .
    As for Zionist plans before the war to expel Palestinians, Plan Dalet is all that needs to be said. That you ignore it demonstrates your own sloppy journalism.

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  45. RECHAVIA,
    .
    I would be glad to have one document, one picture or something else that could prove what you are claiming.
    .
    Did the houses in the compound originally belong to Jews?
    “No. The houses in question were built during the Jordanian regime on an olive grove. They were proposed as a solution for accommodating
    Palestinian refugees who lost their homes in various parts of Israel in
    1948. The ownership of the lots is disputed.”
    http://www.en.justjlm.org/what-is-our-struggle-about/sheikh-jarrah-solidarity/faq-about-sheikh-jarrah

  46. 
  47. Mr Groenberg – when you write
    I answer that the evidence is lacking for existence of such a plan – and that the report of the Situation Committee, hitherto not examined by historians studying this issue, provides evidence of the opposite: Zionist planning for the new state anticipated that the Arab population would remain in place.

    It is utterly ridiculous to assume that just because they formed a committee to consider how to deal with Arabs who remained in Israel, there was therefore no plan to expel them. Why do you make no mention of the transfer committee? The more likely reason for the existence of the Situation Committee is that it was convened to consider how best to deal with the Arabs if the Transfer Committee’s aims were not fully realized (they were relaized to about 70%). Yes, im well aware the Transfer Committe was convened unofficially. But it was central to zionist thinking since Herzl’s time, that the best solution was the removal of the indigenous peoples.
    Knowing how well organised the jewish Agency and Zionists militia were, cataloging all arab habitations and various town/village elders etc – it stands to reason that they would have established a working group (your beloved Situation Committee) to decide what to do with the arabs who remained in the nascent jewish state. Furthermore, it demonstrates how Zionists viewed the indigenous Palestinian population – that they set up a committee to discuss, essentially, what to do with them.

    Oh and lets remember, even the first Prime Minister of Israel, Ben-Gurion, admitted he was in favour of ‘compulsory transfer’ of the indigenous Arabs. There is too much evidence both written, anecdotal and witness testimony, to deny that the removal of as many Palestinians as possible, was an aim of Ben-Gurion and his cohorts.

  48. 
  49. Sinjim,

    Gorenberg wrote: ‘My article, “Why Are They So Angry,” describes the shrill debate about Israel within the American Jewish community. I criticize a particular kind of diaspora nationalist who takes an uncompromising and rigid position on events in a far-away homeland. I mention diaspora Palestinians who do this in the context of a more extensive critique of diaspora Jews who do the same. And I argue that fear of being associated with such an extreme position is no excuse for moderates to remain silent.’

    I could be reading this passage incorrectly, and I am not attempting a blanket defense of Gorenberg’s article otherwise, but I believe that you may have reacted to a formulation that Gorenberg did not actually make. I don’t think the author is saying that moderate diaspora Jews should not hesitate to engage in the debate out of fear of being associated with a Palestinian diaspora whose extremist character can be taken for granted. If that is the case, then right on in your commentary.

    However, I think Gorenberg is suggesting that the frenzied and uncompromising nationalism of elements of the Jewish diaspora can effectively silence moderating debate for fear of being associated with THOSE extreme voices. His reference to the Palestinian diaspora does lend a measure of ambiguity to the paragraph, but seems to pick out among the Palestinian community, like he states for the Jews, a subset of uncompromising activists that stifle debate within their own communities.

    If I am interpreting this correctly, I believe that your attack on Gorenberg’s purported privileged condescension and insult mistaken.

    Best,
    Mike

  50. 
  51. @Mike: Thank you for the response. This is the passage taken directly from Gorenberg’s article:
    .
    “Some feel constrained in speaking as clearly as they’d like about Israel for fear of being identified with another rigidly ideological contingent: Diaspora Palestinians with their own overdone nationalism, and a small coterie of Jews whose express their disappointment with Zionism through mirror-image anti-Zionism…”
    .
    I believe my interpretation is correct. He makes no distinctions among Palestinians of the Diaspora. We are all the same to him. This man insults the millions of people exiled from their homeland as “anti-Israel extremists” with an “overdone nationalism” as part of an argument to convince American Jews that criticizing Israel is “good for the Jews.”
    .
    No Jew, Israeli or otherwise, would accept anyone speaking about their people and their communities in such an insulting manner, least of all as part of an argument about ending this conflict. That Gorenberg has no qualms about it shows how steeped in his own privilege he is.

  52. 
  53. Sinjim,
    I did not do my due diligence and refer to the original text of the article; for that I am embarrassed. Having read the article, I agree that the brush stroke is broad as you say. I’d like to imagine that Gorenberg’s phrasing in the original refers to a contingent within the Palestinian diaspora that expresses an “overdone nationalism,” like that with which he openly deals in the Jewish diaspora. However, that seems to me to be grasping at straws on my part, though I would be reluctant to call it wishful thinking. I guess I just assume that reasonable and intelligent people must, if arguing–or even simply discussing something–in good faith, reject reductive characterizations of diverse groups, even of the “other.” Thanks for your response.

    Best,
    Mike

  54. 
  55. Joseph got Owned.

  56. 
  57. [...] Gershom Gorenberg The following is a response to two pieces that appeared at +972, and is cross-posted there. Links to Dana’s and Sheizaf’s pieces appear in the body of my reply. [...]

  58. 
  59. gorenberg – and rechavia – got Owned.

  60. 
  61. Joseph Dana is a sick antisemite who should never be trusted on anything Israel-related.

  62. 
  63. >>> The Palestinians are not responsible for the expulsions that happened in other parts of the world. Palestinians and Iraqis and Egyptians are not the same people

    I will believe that when I start seeing Palestinians lining up at an Israeli Lishkat Giyus in order to be just another Muslim Israeli soldier like the Cherkassim. Until then, I will believe them when they send delegations to be full members of the Arab League.



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