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	<title>Comments on: Occupation, imprisonment of refugees defile Israeli identity</title>
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	<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/</link>
	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
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		<title>By: The Trespasser</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-82868</link>
		<dc:creator>The Trespasser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 02:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;You may be living on a house built on stolen land that its people were massacred , expelled and are oppressed today.&quot;
Arabs have been doing exactly that - living in stolen houses - for at least last 1500 years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You may be living on a house built on stolen land that its people were massacred , expelled and are oppressed today.&#8221;<br />
Arabs have been doing exactly that &#8211; living in stolen houses &#8211; for at least last 1500 years.</p>
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		<title>By: sh</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-82657</link>
		<dc:creator>sh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have, with great pain, come to the conclusion that you do have to separate Israeli from Jewish, Moriel. I seem to have been inculcated with the same values as you and confess, by now, to feeling as exiled here as I do abroad. I know that some Muslims post-revolution in their countries question their identity in a similar way. So it&#039;s not as though others won&#039;t know what you&#039;re talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have, with great pain, come to the conclusion that you do have to separate Israeli from Jewish, Moriel. I seem to have been inculcated with the same values as you and confess, by now, to feeling as exiled here as I do abroad. I know that some Muslims post-revolution in their countries question their identity in a similar way. So it&#8217;s not as though others won&#8217;t know what you&#8217;re talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Moriel Rothman</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-82447</link>
		<dc:creator>Moriel Rothman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Oct 2012 04:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57541#comment-82447</guid>
		<description>Dear &quot;Palestinian&quot; and &quot;Matt Graber,&quot; 

First off, I want to say that I understand where both of your hesitation comes from around my use of Jewish and Israeli values to equate values of anti-occupation and anti-racism. It is certainly not clear that that is what they are-- but at same time, Matt, while I agree with you that Israeli policies of cruelty and violence could certainly be opposed from a place of universal values, I think that there are also other systems of values that could lead one to oppose these policies- feminist values, Palestinian values, American values. For me, Jewish values inform my opposition to such policies, not in a sense of &quot;superiority,&quot; but rather in a sense of what I know. Do all Jews share these values? Of course not. But can these values be based in Jewish texts and history? I think so. And as for Israeli culture- I understand that this one is even more tricky, as a national identity, but I want to clarify that I am not talking about policy or politics or certain elements of our history like expulsion and hatred. Those exist, certainly, but so to do the warm and positive elements of the culture which I pointed out and want to uplift. Will most Israeli Jews agree with my description of what Israeli Jewish culture should lead us to believe? I don&#039;t know. Probably not in full. And yet, I find these to be anchoring forms of identity. So, while I hear your hesitancy, I would challenge both of you to think about whether it is worth attacking my formulation if it leads us to similar values of anti-racism and anti-occupation as do humanistic or Palesitnian values in this context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear &#8220;Palestinian&#8221; and &#8220;Matt Graber,&#8221; </p>
<p>First off, I want to say that I understand where both of your hesitation comes from around my use of Jewish and Israeli values to equate values of anti-occupation and anti-racism. It is certainly not clear that that is what they are&#8211; but at same time, Matt, while I agree with you that Israeli policies of cruelty and violence could certainly be opposed from a place of universal values, I think that there are also other systems of values that could lead one to oppose these policies- feminist values, Palestinian values, American values. For me, Jewish values inform my opposition to such policies, not in a sense of &#8220;superiority,&#8221; but rather in a sense of what I know. Do all Jews share these values? Of course not. But can these values be based in Jewish texts and history? I think so. And as for Israeli culture- I understand that this one is even more tricky, as a national identity, but I want to clarify that I am not talking about policy or politics or certain elements of our history like expulsion and hatred. Those exist, certainly, but so to do the warm and positive elements of the culture which I pointed out and want to uplift. Will most Israeli Jews agree with my description of what Israeli Jewish culture should lead us to believe? I don&#8217;t know. Probably not in full. And yet, I find these to be anchoring forms of identity. So, while I hear your hesitancy, I would challenge both of you to think about whether it is worth attacking my formulation if it leads us to similar values of anti-racism and anti-occupation as do humanistic or Palesitnian values in this context.</p>
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		<title>By: Palestinian</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-82117</link>
		<dc:creator>Palestinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:04:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57541#comment-82117</guid>
		<description>Amen</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Graber</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-82082</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Graber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 14:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57541#comment-82082</guid>
		<description>I worry that the assertion of &#039;Jewish values&#039; replicates the Zionist discourse that asserts Jewish supremacy. I contend that the occupation, the imprisonment of refugees, the siege of Gaza, and the refusal to grant Palestinian refugees all defile human morality. If Jews wish to be moral, then a clear demonstration of these ethics would be to oppose the brutal policies of the state of Israel. But I would not say that it is Jewish values which preclude one from ethical opposition to Israeli brutality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I worry that the assertion of &#8216;Jewish values&#8217; replicates the Zionist discourse that asserts Jewish supremacy. I contend that the occupation, the imprisonment of refugees, the siege of Gaza, and the refusal to grant Palestinian refugees all defile human morality. If Jews wish to be moral, then a clear demonstration of these ethics would be to oppose the brutal policies of the state of Israel. But I would not say that it is Jewish values which preclude one from ethical opposition to Israeli brutality.</p>
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		<title>By: Palestinian</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-81961</link>
		<dc:creator>Palestinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:50:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57541#comment-81961</guid>
		<description>&quot;I am proud to be part of a culture of warmth despite hardship, of perseverance and passion and concern with the collective. And I am proud to be a Jew, even as I feel repulsed by much of the mainstream Jewish establishment, proud of our history of struggling against oppression, of pursuing justice, of speaking truth to power&quot; ...what culture ? what is the thing that makes you feel proud of being an Israeli ? You may be living on a house built on stolen land that its people were massacred , expelled and are oppressed today.Since when Judaism has anything to do with fighting oppression ? You are just repeating sentences that we hear over and over ,beh</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I am proud to be part of a culture of warmth despite hardship, of perseverance and passion and concern with the collective. And I am proud to be a Jew, even as I feel repulsed by much of the mainstream Jewish establishment, proud of our history of struggling against oppression, of pursuing justice, of speaking truth to power&#8221; &#8230;what culture ? what is the thing that makes you feel proud of being an Israeli ? You may be living on a house built on stolen land that its people were massacred , expelled and are oppressed today.Since when Judaism has anything to do with fighting oppression ? You are just repeating sentences that we hear over and over ,beh</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Pollock</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-81845</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Pollock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57541#comment-81845</guid>
		<description>The rest:  The presently ruling coalition has successfully defined stability as removal of the impure other.  The logic is at work in the Bank and, while Arab politician citizens want the refugees out as well, these citizens are themselves subject to purity control by other means.  Israel cannot continue this path without quashing the values evolved in Diaspora.  War readiness does not apply to the refugee case; this should warn that &quot;purity&quot; is once again evolving as a means of social control.  Winning can make a new enemy--oursleves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The rest:  The presently ruling coalition has successfully defined stability as removal of the impure other.  The logic is at work in the Bank and, while Arab politician citizens want the refugees out as well, these citizens are themselves subject to purity control by other means.  Israel cannot continue this path without quashing the values evolved in Diaspora.  War readiness does not apply to the refugee case; this should warn that &#8220;purity&#8221; is once again evolving as a means of social control.  Winning can make a new enemy&#8211;oursleves.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Pollock</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-81843</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Pollock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57541#comment-81843</guid>
		<description>Israeli corporate identity rests on millennia of Jewish persecution, cumulating in the Shoah, followed by perceived perpetual war before and after statehood.  Adversary defines existence, externally in occupation and Iran et al., but internally as well, via &quot;infiltrators,&quot; originally designating enemy or defeated Arabs, later expanding to terrorists, now used for foreign refugees and, somewhat whispered, the &quot;demographic threat&quot; of Arab Israeli citizens.  At statehood, purity was (sometimes) expulsion of the enemy.  Now purity is the expulsion of infiltrators damaging Jewish life by their very presence (Lieberman even considered expelling entire villages of Arab Israeli citizens in a &quot;trade&quot;).  The Diaspora network, having to live in a hostile world, recognized justice to the stranger as they hoped for themselves. Israeli State action has become incompatible with the historical reasoning of (part of) the Diaspora.

What will happen to children born in the refugee camps?  Will they be educated?  Where is home?  Refugees are assembled solely to remove then in a gentle final solution. They may leave Israel at any time, perhaps otherwise expelled when their home country by race is no longer &quot;dangerous.&quot;  The presently ruling coalition has successfully defined stability as removal of the impure other.  The logic is at work in the Bank and, while Arab politician citizens want the refugees out as well, these citizens are themselves subject to purity control by other means.  Israel cannot continue this path without quashing the values evolved in Diaspora.  War readiness does not apply to the refugee case; this should warn that &quot;purity&quot; is once again evolving as a means of social control.  Winning can make a new enemy--oursleves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Israeli corporate identity rests on millennia of Jewish persecution, cumulating in the Shoah, followed by perceived perpetual war before and after statehood.  Adversary defines existence, externally in occupation and Iran et al., but internally as well, via &#8220;infiltrators,&#8221; originally designating enemy or defeated Arabs, later expanding to terrorists, now used for foreign refugees and, somewhat whispered, the &#8220;demographic threat&#8221; of Arab Israeli citizens.  At statehood, purity was (sometimes) expulsion of the enemy.  Now purity is the expulsion of infiltrators damaging Jewish life by their very presence (Lieberman even considered expelling entire villages of Arab Israeli citizens in a &#8220;trade&#8221;).  The Diaspora network, having to live in a hostile world, recognized justice to the stranger as they hoped for themselves. Israeli State action has become incompatible with the historical reasoning of (part of) the Diaspora.</p>
<p>What will happen to children born in the refugee camps?  Will they be educated?  Where is home?  Refugees are assembled solely to remove then in a gentle final solution. They may leave Israel at any time, perhaps otherwise expelled when their home country by race is no longer &#8220;dangerous.&#8221;  The presently ruling coalition has successfully defined stability as removal of the impure other.  The logic is at work in the Bank and, while Arab politician citizens want the refugees out as well, these citizens are themselves subject to purity control by other means.  Israel cannot continue this path without quashing the values evolved in Diaspora.  War readiness does not apply to the refugee case; this should warn that &#8220;purity&#8221; is once again evolving as a means of social control.  Winning can make a new enemy&#8211;oursleves.</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-81837</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Torah, in numerous places, reminds Jews that we were once strangers and to treat the stranger in our midst well. Yet, it is the religious parties that are against treating the stranger badly.

The African immigrants are not just &quot;economic refugees&quot;. One could have said that Jews immigrating to America were just economic refugees, but we know they were fleeing antisemitism and persecution as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Torah, in numerous places, reminds Jews that we were once strangers and to treat the stranger in our midst well. Yet, it is the religious parties that are against treating the stranger badly.</p>
<p>The African immigrants are not just &#8220;economic refugees&#8221;. One could have said that Jews immigrating to America were just economic refugees, but we know they were fleeing antisemitism and persecution as well.</p>
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		<title>By: rsgengland</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/occupation-imprisonment-of-refugees-defile-israeli-identity/57541/comment-page-1/#comment-81713</link>
		<dc:creator>rsgengland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 22:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57541#comment-81713</guid>
		<description>The majority of African refugees are &#039;economic refugees&#039; trying to find a better place to live .
Unfettered immigration tends to distort and damage the host country , and can eventually destroy the very reasons that the &#039;illegal immigrants came in the first place</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The majority of African refugees are &#8216;economic refugees&#8217; trying to find a better place to live .<br />
Unfettered immigration tends to distort and damage the host country , and can eventually destroy the very reasons that the &#8216;illegal immigrants came in the first place</p>
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