21 comments for ”How Nakba villages sunk into Israeli landscape“

    
  1. No comments allowed on this post?

    I asked earlier, “what do you think is the most effective way to honor the prior residents?”

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  3. One of the ironies about the Israeli Left/Progressives is their myopia about their own hypocrisies. For example, one of the initiators of the Sheikh Jarrah demonstrations freely admitted he lives in what was up until 1948 was an Arab-owned house in west Jerusalem whose owner either fled or was forced out in the 1948 war. Apparently, he feels that if he shows enough zeal in working to push Jews out of Sheikh Jarrah, the Palestinians will be grateful enough to allow him to keep his “stolen” property. I suggested to him that if he really wants to help the Palestinians, he should track down the original Arab owner or his decendents and give the house back to him. I didn’t get a reply.
    Another good example is Tel Aviv University…a hotbed of Leftist/Progressive political activism. Ironically, the university and the rest of the “enlightened” Tel Aviv suburb of Ramat Aviv (in other words, they give their votes to the Left in every election) is sitting on what was the property of the Arab village of Sheikh Munis. Although these activists can work themselves into a fury when thinking about the settlers in the West Bank, I haven’t heard any offer to move the university somewhere else and give the land back to its original owners.
    Even more ironically is that one of the occasional contributers here at “972″ has also admitted living on what was Arab propery in west Jerusalem…it may be others are as well but I don’t have such information.
    Another example is writer A B Yehoshua whom we all know is a “peace activist”. During the Lebanon II or Cast Lead (Gaza) War he castigated the Arabs for firing rockets into Israel (his home in Haifa was in the target area). He commented whereas the murder of the Hatuels (pregnant mother and several young children) in cold blood, while sad, was “understandable” because they lived in Neve Dekalim in Gush Katif and the Palestinians living in nearby Khan Yunis were upset about them being there, it was wrong to fire rockets into nearby Sederot becaue the border was between them. Of course A B is conveniently forgetting that while the people in Khan Yunis viewed the land in Neveh Dekalim as belonging to them, THEY ALSO VIEW SEDEROT AS BELONGING TO THEM, and the existence of what they see as an artificial border doesn’t change their view of their rights.

    Finally, there was the interview I recall with a veteran MERETZ kibbutznik who was a long-time protestor against the Jews who lived in Gush Katif. He viewed them as extremists, thieves, etc, etc. When it was pointed out to him that his kibbutz was also on what was formerly Arab land he said “how can you compare the two? We are “progressives”, we built our kibbutz on the basis of socialism, international brotherhood”. I don’t think the Arabs who lost their land to him really are comforted by that.

    The point is that we see over and over the hypcrisy of the Israeli Left/Progressives. They think that by denouncing the settlers they are gaining the right to formerly Arab property that they want to keep for themselves. But going to Sheikh Jarrah demonstrations or writing hand-wringing pieces for “972″ don’t do anything for those who lost land in 1948. ONLY TRACKING DOWN THE FORMER OWNERS AND GIVING THEM THEIR LAND BACK CAN BALANCE THE BOOKS…if indeed you feel that they were wronged in the 1948 war (which I don’t, but that is another story).

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  5. Ben Israel, good post. I have nothing to add.

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  7. Ben Israel, great post. So much so, that I have NOTHING to add.

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  9. Ben Israel has found irony in left-wingers who admit to feeling guilty about living in a house that once belonged to a Palestinian. One of the main reasons everyone, including Ben Israel, should feel guilty about it is because even though Jerusalem Jews who claim to have lost their land between 1948 and 1967 were generously compensated by the first Israeli governments for it, Israeli law now permits them to successfully claim it back or, thanks to the munificence of US billionaires, to make it over to Kahanist organizations acting in their name so that 1948 Palestinian refugees for whom houses on that land were built by the Jordanian government and international aid organizations during the same period, can be turfed out of them – without compensation of course – to become refugees for a second time. Right-wingers get the compensation and the land for which it was awarded while Palestinian refugees who were resettled in places like Silwan and Sheikh Jarrah get to lose their houses twice and that’s not yet the end of the story. Under Israeli law as it stands at present, if you’re a Jew it’s win-win, if you’re an Arab it’s lose-lose. Most Israelis from whatever wing either didn’t understand that until recently, or still don’t know, or refuse to know and write long, discursive posts under any subject that seeks to discuss it.

    And we haven’t yet touched upon the kind of settlers that are moved into East Jerusalem, the nature of their conduct in sensitive neighborhoods not only there but increasingly all over Israel and the fact that they and they alone have, in addition to private security guards, complete protection from the police and the government for what they do.

    Lastly the idea of giving uncompensated land back to former owners once they’ve been tracked down. It’s a good one, but we’ll need to elect a government that levels the legal playing field and puts a stop to pernicious practices like the arbitrary designation of “closed military zones” and “green areas” first.

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  11. Edit:
    Right-wingers get the compensation AND the land for which it was awarded while Palestinian refugees from Jaffa, Sarafand and other places within the green line, who were resettled in places like Silwan and Sheikh Jarrah get to lose their houses twice, WITHOUT COMPENSATION, and we’re still not yet at the end of the story.

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  13. Ben Israel – it’s too bad that when you track down the rightful owner of your property and transfer title to that person, the owner probably won’t be allowed into the country to take possession of it.

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  15. Aristeides-
    Put the property in trust pending a peace agreement, pay full value of rental, buy it for full value…there are numerous options.

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  17. The only just option, however, is removing the barrier preventing refugees from returning.

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  19. I have a kvetchy far lefty friend in Yafo, who lives in a Nakba house. She had told me that the current Israeli owner of another Nakba house in Yafo had traced the previous owners to Lebanon and had a lawyer deliver a “sales price” for the house to the former Palestinian owners.
    This discussion about “lost property” is unique. As I have written in these threads before, at no time in the history of man have refugees and their descendants been privileged to such thoughts let alone ongoing actions. At no time in the history of man have “refugees” aka political- putty been led to believe that they will actually go home.
    After WW2 many German speaking refugees ( millions ) from central Europe and further East were a significant voting bloc in West Germany elections. The right wing politicians would court their associations over decades ensuring their votes, by swearing that they’d get their houses in Poland and Sudetenland back ( this was at the hight of the cold war, Ha Ha! ). The children of the refugees would turn up in traditional costumes and the German left would fume at the large meetings, where in front of thousands the post war Right would promise the impossible. This was especially delicate, since of course Poland/Czeck had no interest in “welcoming” thousands of pre WW2 citizens after having been steam rolled by the Nazi’s.
    One could argue that the Arab’s insistence on the RoR is another way of saying “we do not except Israel”. I wish Arab’s and Israeli’s would look at the refugee situation in post war Europe. We could learn a great deal.
    The border breach in the Golan is proof that the Arabs actually believe that they will go to Israel one day. Like the terror the Arab world has bankrolled for forty years, so this silly idea of return will come to bite them in the behind.
    Here is a link to a book critique ( by a right wing US Jew ) about an British UNRWA official (1951-52), Arab politics and more…
    http://www.romirowsky.com/7948/a-tale-of-two-galloways
    The descendants of the original refugees will never come back apart from a symbolic number ( socializing those into Israeli society should be interesting ), when the far left and Arabs cease to kvetch about this “non-issue”, much will be gained. Deal with it, like tens of millions before you, and we can move on. And the refugee’s kids can move out of the Palestinian camps in Syria and Lebanon and get a job. Get a life. Instead of waiting for ever.
    The thought of hundreds of thousands of Arabs just wasting their lives waiting strikes me as perverse.

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  21. David – it’s odd that the victims of the Nazis don’t seem to think it’s “silly” to think that they should be able to retrieve their stolen property, and the courts also don’t think it’s “silly.” They order this property to be returned to the original Jewish owners, and without imposing a “selling price” on it, even if the present owner had purchased it in good faith.

    Likewise, the Germans, who recognize their guilt, don’t claim that it’s a “non-issue” when they send reparations to the Nazi victims. They don’t tell the Survivors to “deal with it and move on.”

    What disgusts me about Zionists is this attitude of mocking their victims and their suffering.

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  23. aristeides, your fabrication of “facts” and internal contradictions is quite symptomatic.
    You first claim that “selling price” isn’t used for the victims of the Nazis, and then write about the German reparations.
    You then ignore the fundamental difference between an aggressed victim and the loser aggressor.
    You pretend to look for law and justice, forgetting that Jewish Israel is here by international law.
    In short: hypocrisy. Are you fooling yourself or only trying to fool us?

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  25. Max, you exhibit the warping thinking of Zionists, that in attempting to justify the unjustifiable, you cast your victims as guilty and aggressors.

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  27. aristeides, I enjoy pointing out that your post include accusations, fabrications and no facts, following a time honored practice of talk much and say nothing

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  29. That’s right, Max. You obviously take pleasure in your hypocrisy.

    The facts are in Kadman’s book. If you can read it and still maintain your self-righteousness, that’s your problem.

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  31. It’s OK aristeides, I understand that you forgot your brains in someone else’s book. Call when you get it back!

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  33. aristeides, your fabrication of “facts” and internal contradictions is quite symptomatic.
    “You first claim that “selling price” isn’t used for the victims of the Nazis, and then write about the German reparations.”
    Yeah, so…? Is this just a total non sequitur, or did you actually want to say something?

    “You then ignore the fundamental difference between an aggressed victim and the loser aggressor.”
    The relevant body of international law does not distinguish between civilians depending on whether their country was an ‘aggressor’. Your argument is baseless.

    “You pretend to look for law and justice, forgetting that Jewish Israel is here by international law.”
    Again, a total non sequitur. A state exists, so it does not need to follow any rules?

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  35. I see that you like using Latin in your posts. I’m impressed. You may one day also want to understand the meaning of it. In any case, Latin doesn’t make your statements more intelligent.
    If I read a claim stating Because A … followed by But A is not true, I know I’m in trouble… that’s the 1st case you mention.
    In the 2nd, you seem to have completely gone past the point (was it so obscure?): the German recognized their aggression, and the parallel would be for the Arabs states to recognize theirs and apologize to the Palestinians (I don’t expect them to do it towards the Israelis)
    For the 3rd: since Israel is a legal entity, it has the right to defend itself when attacked, and referring to the attacker as a victim is – how did you say? – non sequitur

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  37. ARISTEIDES
    going from my “refugee” post, to a general comparison of the Shoa to the “Nakba” is silly. And comparing reparations paid by Germany to its own former citizens in the same instance implies again, a comparison. Another way of putting this is that the German speaking people of Central and Eastern Europe had nothing to do with the Nazi’s arriving in their respective countries, so it is wrong to make a connection with the 750.000 and the 12 Million. The Palestinians put their chips on the Arab armies and they lost. The “Eastern” Germans never had anything to do with Hitler or his plans to steam role Eastern Europe, regardless, they were kicked out over night out of their countries. No reparations. Please see the Benes decrees.

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  39. “If I read a claim stating Because A … followed by But A is not true, I know I’m in trouble… that’s the 1st case you mention.”
    Now you’ve completely lost me. I cannot even make sense of that on a syntactic, much less on a semantic level. Can anybody explain what this means?

    “the German recognized their aggression, and the parallel would be for the Arabs states”
    … is supposed to be…
    “the fundamental difference between an aggressed victim and the loser aggressor.”
    ???
    Really? How so. I mean, you name two supposed aggressors behaving in different ways. Where does the supposed victim come into play?

    “since Israel is a legal entity, it has the right to defend itself when attacked”
    That was not the question. I have a right to defend myself when attacked as well. I do not have the right to evict the attacker’s friends and family from their homes and steal their possessions. Or maybe in your opinion I do. If that is your viewpoint, could you clear it up?

    P.S.: Could you maybe quit it with the ad hominem (more Latin for you)?

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  41. 1. If I first read “They order this property to be returned to the original Jewish owners, and without imposing a “selling price” on it” and then I read “the Germans… send reparations to the Nazi victims” then I know it’s a contradiction.
    2. The German were the aggressor; the Arab were the aggressor. The Jews “lost” to the Germans and the Arabs lost to the Jews.
    3. Eviction – was certainly a part of it. The rest is war, and the Arab propaganda that instilled fear in the population. Reparations should be made.



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