Comments on: How is Zionism different from other forms of nationalism?

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:38:47 +0000

I appreciate that you opened with nationalism itself exists in a tension with democracy.

Actually, you didn’t use that term, tension.

That is the accurate description. EVERY, and I mean every, national or any state formed on a specific concept (not just nation, race, ethnicity), excludes in some manner.

In a capitalist society, net worth entitles you to vote (in the form of your spending), and defines power.

In a religious society, association with the religion affords rights and power.

In a nationally defined society, there are ALWAYS implied privileges to being a national, and by the terms of the national definition, which varies.

The existence of the tension between democracy and nationality requires the emphasis of democracy, NOT the dissolution of the nationalism.

Even in terms of political forms, our choice is from a menu, not from the pallette of might be on the menu.

In Israel, is Palestinian nationalism less exclusive than Israeli? By current law, its not, as there are laws restricting the ownership or property by Jews in the West Bank even.

Affirm the dignity of all is the point, even within a national setting. Make the best, not the perfect (that doesn’t and can’t exist).

By: Adam

Adam — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 07:36:02 +0000

Piotr,
Pakistan is technically a democracy, and there are different situations of minority ethnic rule, VERY comparable to apartheid, in some of its largest provinces . Some Latin American democracies have situations with various native groups which are not as bad as those Pakistani provinces, but are worse than Israel’s. African and Arab immigrants in several European democracies have greater inequality than exists in Israel between Arabs and Jews.

BTW, did anyone notice that people getting moved 25 miles away from their original homes in the middle of a WAR is not the same as the genocidal trek that was the Trail of Tears? It’s not even the same as what happened to the Czechoslavakians of German heritage after WW2. Sean Lee clearly lacks basic intellectual curiosity.

By: Piotr Berman

Piotr Berman — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 16:41:51 +0000

I have set goal post precisely: a step above dictatorships. If Israel should be considered in the same league as Saudi Arabia, then indeed, women can drive! wow! and can board buses without male family members present, wow! a religious court dispenses a surprisingly mild penalty for witchcraft, wow! Then I can be very nicely impressed. If Israel should be considered in the same league as Kyrgyzstan, then we have to compare two records more thouroughly to be impressed or not. Government tries to relocate 30 thousands minority members from their dwellings for no other purpose but making forest and generally, improve aesthetic aspect of the territory (it looks kind of unseemly with all those minority types all over the place). Advantage: Kyrgzystan. Mobs murder tens of thousands of minority members during an unsettled period of government transition. Advantage: Israel. A radio station disliked by the government is shut down. Advantage: Kyrgyzstan. A valuable airport provided for the use of US airforce. Advantage: Kyrgyzstan. Government promises to close that base. Advantage: Israel. Official enter a bribery scheme to accept American money and do not close the base. Hm. Hard to evaluate. Government does not impose restrictions on NGOs like the ones in Uzbekistan and Belorus. So far, neutral, but perhaps, soon, advantage Kyrgyzstan. Etc.

By: Bosko

Bosko — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 12:03:22 +0000

Piotr: “Offhand, one may conjecture that Burundi and Zimbabwe are suckier”
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Piotr: “The last time I checked, Saudi Arabia was an absolute monarchy, which to me fits the definition of a dictatorship. Yet, this is where Bosco looks for an example of an inferior treatment of minorities”
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Yea, right, i wasn’t aware that Burundi and Zimbabwe are shining democracies yet our Piotr compared Israel to those places and even was kind enough to rank Israel slightly ahead of them but no one else (unless I am mistaken about the word “suckier”?). But here I am, I went to a lot of trouble (NOT!!!) and found another suckier place in the Middle East. So now our Piotr is shifting the goal posts and she pretends that she was comparing Israel only to democracies. Oh well …

By: Piotr Berman

Piotr Berman — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:30:51 +0000

Welcome to Israel, the most liberal theocracy in the Middle East?

The last time I checked, Saudi Arabia was an absolute monarchy, which to me fits the definition of a dictatorship. Yet, this is where Bosco looks for an example of an inferior treatment of minorities.

How about India or Slovakia? I will grant that Kyrgyzstan is a serious contender for a democracy that sucks more — but with possibility of improvement. The case of Turkey can be debated back and forth. This is how I see Israel’s neighbors in “suckiness” ranking.

By: Bosko

Bosko — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 05:19:51 +0000

Piotr Bergman: “But if we try to step up from Africa and various dictatorships then it is hard to find equally bad treatment of minorities in the last 60 years”
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Really? Then let’s just look at one candidate.
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“Saudi Arabian law does not recognize religious freedom, and the public practice of non-Muslim religions is actively prohibited.[31] No law specifically requires citizens to be Muslims, but article 12.4 of the Naturalization Law requires that applicants attest to their religious affiliation, and article 14.1 requires that applicants to get a certificate endorsed by their local cleric.[32] The Government has declared the Holy Quran and the Sunna (tradition) of the Prophet Muhammad to be the country’s constitution. Neither the Government nor society in general accepts the concepts of separation of religion and state, and such separation does not exist. The legal system is based on Sharia (Islamic law), with Shari’a courts basing their judgments largely on a code derived from the Quran and the Sunna. The Government permits Shi’a Muslims to use their own legal tradition to adjudicate noncriminal cases within their community.[32]”
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia
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There are plenty of more candidates in the Middle East but I guess for some people, Israel always has to be put near the bottom of the list. Reality need not have anything to do with it.

By: Piotr Berman

Piotr Berman — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 04:20:22 +0000

“The human race sucks, but Israel and Zionism, with all it’s mistreatment of Palestinian Arabs is far from the suckiest place on the planet, which is the gist of the author’s argument.”

This is definitely a large planet. To the chagrin of many liberals here, there exists a large number of “ethnocracies”, some even with their own ethno-centric religions, were non-members of the majority (or a minority ruling groups) are in some ways worse off than the members of the ruling ethnic group. Offhand, one may conjecture that Burundi and Zimbabwe are suckier.

But if we try to step up from Africa and various dictatorships then it is hard to find equally bad treatment of minorities in the last 60 years.

By: directrob

directrob — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 20:19:03 +0000

@Adrian,
Everyone has the right of self determination. That includes Palestinians and Jews. That does not mean however that Palestinians and Jews cannot live in one state because that would violate their rights (as AT suggests). As long as the state would respect there rights they would all participate in the state and have “self determination”.

By: Adrian

Adrian — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 18:33:07 +0000

@Directrob:
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I don’t see how your answer is relevant to arguing against the right of self-determination for the Jewish People (or the Palestinian People for that matter), at least as far as International Law goes.
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In fact, as stated by this ruling by Quebéc’s Supreme Court, this right is not by itself limited to indigenous peoples just as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights is silent on whether this distinction should be made or not.
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Of course let’s not enter on defining who are the indigenous in Israel/Palestine (or in other areas in the Middle East and Northern Africa) as I see it as a pointless debate.

By: Henry Weinstein

Henry Weinstein — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:56:23 +0000

Mitchell Cohen,
Thanks for the compliment. Truth is most of the time I write lyrics, the only way I feel confident to write in english.
But I must confess the way I write French is not very French, and my handwriting looks like Hebrew.
French allows me to write with a scalpel. Like German allowed Franz Kafka to write unspoken emotions.
The good thing to write in English is it prevent me from being too intellectual,
I am obliged to write like a child who asked himself why adults behave like lunatics, and tell lies and fairy tales to others.