Comments on: Mass entry of Palestinians into Israel calls for new approach to permit regime http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Sun, 19 May 2013 21:44:37 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-75099 Kolumn9 Sat, 08 Sep 2012 19:37:45 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-75099 Greg, First, the model doesn't disagree with my worldview, it just doesn't provide any additional information in its seven pages. Second, support for the murder of Israeli civilians within the borders of Israel was 75%+ at the height of the intifada and it is at about 50% right now. I repeat, it isn't the suicide bombings as a tactic that is shocking but the willingness and support for explicitly targeting and killing Israeli civilians with the support of an entire society consensus where those 25% that are opposed are almost entirely excluded from the public sphere. Again, between the two of us it is you that is looking for simplicity. You find it in assigning the capacity to carry out suicide bombings to individuals and then look for societal changes to undermine this phenomenon. Even if we were to accept your premise the recipe is entirely unrealistic considering the different impact of any possible measures across the individuals of a society. Additionally as we already discussed suicide bombings are not the result of the willingness of individuals to sacrifice themselves, but the result of an organizational structure that makes them possible. Without the support of such a structure they stop. Whether there is one structure or ten the structures themselves must be either eliminated, coopted or deterred from carrying out attacks, because as I already stated, the motivation for attacking Israeli civilians is very high in Palestinian society and the legitimacy for such action is reinforced by the treatment of the killers of Israeli civilians as heroes by Palestinian society as exemplified by the respect paid to them by such relatively moderate politicians as PA President Abbas. Greg, First, the model doesn’t disagree with my worldview, it just doesn’t provide any additional information in its seven pages. Second, support for the murder of Israeli civilians within the borders of Israel was 75%+ at the height of the intifada and it is at about 50% right now. I repeat, it isn’t the suicide bombings as a tactic that is shocking but the willingness and support for explicitly targeting and killing Israeli civilians with the support of an entire society consensus where those 25% that are opposed are almost entirely excluded from the public sphere.

Again, between the two of us it is you that is looking for simplicity. You find it in assigning the capacity to carry out suicide bombings to individuals and then look for societal changes to undermine this phenomenon. Even if we were to accept your premise the recipe is entirely unrealistic considering the different impact of any possible measures across the individuals of a society. Additionally as we already discussed suicide bombings are not the result of the willingness of individuals to sacrifice themselves, but the result of an organizational structure that makes them possible. Without the support of such a structure they stop. Whether there is one structure or ten the structures themselves must be either eliminated, coopted or deterred from carrying out attacks, because as I already stated, the motivation for attacking Israeli civilians is very high in Palestinian society and the legitimacy for such action is reinforced by the treatment of the killers of Israeli civilians as heroes by Palestinian society as exemplified by the respect paid to them by such relatively moderate politicians as PA President Abbas.

]]> By: someone http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-75047 someone Sat, 08 Sep 2012 11:24:14 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-75047 XYZ, You're right about the timing of the majority of bombing attacks, but I can't agree with your analysis of the reasoning for that. I don't think it had anything to do with Israel giving anything up. I think it moreso had to do with an imposed leadership agreeing to separation and concessions during the Oslo process. XYZ,
You’re right about the timing of the majority of bombing attacks, but I can’t agree with your analysis of the reasoning for that. I don’t think it had anything to do with Israel giving anything up. I think it moreso had to do with an imposed leadership agreeing to separation and concessions during the Oslo process.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-74783 Greg Pollock Thu, 06 Sep 2012 07:10:19 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-74783 As to the model, it is not about warfare as such. It asks how suicidal altrusim can be sustained without coercion. Key is the existence of multiple, autonomous groups. The conclusion reached is that one group can strike at a universal predator to induce a response which hits mostly other groups; suicide bombing was as much inter group competition within the Bank as it was against Israel. If true, one can ask how to alter the predator response to vanquish the group competition component of the bombings within the Bank. There is no Palestinian nation is single resolve; nor a single commander ordering all events. You want a simple enemy; evolutionary biology suggests it is not there. More: you will have to give respect to the new voices in the Bank rather than disdaining them as less than yours. And that, indeed, employs risk. While you make Jews the perfect sufferers, a mirror narative is forming among Palestinians. You are both going to have to give room--unless, indeed, you want their expunging throughout the Bank. As to the model, it is not about warfare as such. It asks how suicidal altrusim can be sustained without coercion. Key is the existence of multiple, autonomous groups. The conclusion reached is that one group can strike at a universal predator to induce a response which hits mostly other groups; suicide bombing was as much inter group competition within the Bank as it was against Israel. If true, one can ask how to alter the predator response to vanquish the group competition component of the bombings within the Bank. There is no Palestinian nation is single resolve; nor a single commander ordering all events. You want a simple enemy; evolutionary biology suggests it is not there.

More: you will have to give respect to the new voices in the Bank rather than disdaining them as less than yours. And that, indeed, employs risk. While you make Jews the perfect sufferers, a mirror narative is forming among Palestinians. You are both going to have to give room–unless, indeed, you want their expunging throughout the Bank.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-74781 Greg Pollock Thu, 06 Sep 2012 06:56:53 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-74781 First, I was more of an evolutionary biologist than economist. Second, it is false to say models are of no help if they disagree with your world view. On Charlie Rose, Ami Ayalon, former head of Shin Bet, recounted this story, taking place at a London conference during the second Intafata. A Gazan pediatrician, who he consider a friend, said to him, "Now we are your equals! You have F-16s, we have suicide bombers!" Ayalon said he was shocked; from this incident he decided some new path must be found. The Gazan was not involved in suicide bombing. He appropriated the events in his discourse as a weapon. That is your univocal Palestinian nation (of a sort). First, I was more of an evolutionary biologist than economist. Second, it is false to say models are of no help if they disagree with your world view.

On Charlie Rose, Ami Ayalon, former head of Shin Bet, recounted this story, taking place at a London conference during the second Intafata. A Gazan pediatrician, who he consider a friend, said to him, “Now we are your equals! You have F-16s, we have suicide bombers!” Ayalon said he was shocked; from this incident he decided some new path must be found. The Gazan was not involved in suicide bombing. He appropriated the events in his discourse as a weapon. That is your univocal Palestinian nation (of a sort).

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-74729 Kolumn9 Wed, 05 Sep 2012 19:25:39 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-74729 Greg, I see the site is back up. I don't know how your paper has relevance. The willingness of societies under stress to sacrifice human life in war is something nearly universal to the human condition, and societies that are unwilling to do so don't survive. This doesn't require a paper. This is one of the reasons why I truly hate reading papers by economists who go into political science or social science. They produce unreadable materials and generate no additional understanding. . There is some confusion about the reason why suicide bombings were so horrific. It wasn't the 'suicide' part of it, which is misunderstood due to Western prejudices on the issue, but that it targeted civilians explicitly. It was the willingness of the Palestinian groups and bombers to directly and explicitly target children, women and other civilians with the full support of their societies. It was a clear expression of homicidal hatred on the part of an entire society for every and any member of another. The very act of a Jew living and breathing in Israel was a crime that in that society was considered punishable by death. . That outlook hasn't changed. What has changed is the willingness and inability to organize attacks, almost entirely on the basis of reasons of self-interest as a response to the failure of the tactics and the brutal retaliation. Greg, I see the site is back up. I don’t know how your paper has relevance. The willingness of societies under stress to sacrifice human life in war is something nearly universal to the human condition, and societies that are unwilling to do so don’t survive. This doesn’t require a paper. This is one of the reasons why I truly hate reading papers by economists who go into political science or social science. They produce unreadable materials and generate no additional understanding.
.

There is some confusion about the reason why suicide bombings were so horrific. It wasn’t the ‘suicide’ part of it, which is misunderstood due to Western prejudices on the issue, but that it targeted civilians explicitly. It was the willingness of the Palestinian groups and bombers to directly and explicitly target children, women and other civilians with the full support of their societies. It was a clear expression of homicidal hatred on the part of an entire society for every and any member of another. The very act of a Jew living and breathing in Israel was a crime that in that society was considered punishable by death.
.

That outlook hasn’t changed. What has changed is the willingness and inability to organize attacks, almost entirely on the basis of reasons of self-interest as a response to the failure of the tactics and the brutal retaliation.

]]> By: Antony Goddard http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-74690 Antony Goddard Wed, 05 Sep 2012 16:15:01 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-74690 Maybe the permit system could be integrated with consumer electronics by means of a 'Visit Israel' app on smartphones. Israel is reputed to have one of the best software industries in the world. This would of course just be a 'temporary measure', until the permit system gets abandoned completely. Maybe the permit system could be integrated with consumer electronics by means of a ‘Visit Israel’ app on smartphones. Israel is reputed to have one of the best software industries in the world.
This would of course just be a ‘temporary measure’, until the permit system gets abandoned completely.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-74662 Greg Pollock Wed, 05 Sep 2012 08:43:51 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-74662 I suspect the social structure underlying the bombings is more fine grained than you think: http://www.eco.uc3m.es/~acabrales/research/gregEER2288.pdf Even if one demolishes that structure, it might recur. I think it important to know what thought there now is on the ground. I will not trivialize minds living struggle, nor more would I those of the Dispora past. If you give Palestinians the respect of mind you may find hope otherwise overlooked. I suspect the social structure underlying the bombings is more fine grained than you think:

http://www.eco.uc3m.es/~acabrales/research/gregEER2288.pdf

Even if one demolishes that structure, it might recur. I think it important to know what thought there now is on the ground. I will not trivialize minds living struggle, nor more would I those of the Dispora past. If you give Palestinians the respect of mind you may find hope otherwise overlooked.

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-74562 Kolumn9 Tue, 04 Sep 2012 17:57:47 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-74562 Greg, we already discussed this. There is a very wide gulf between thinking and acting. Suicide bombings are a complicated organizational challenge, especially when facing restrictions on transportation and a determined opposition in the form of the IDF and the Shabak. Suicide bombings stopped when PA/Fateh was forced to act to stop their own suicide bombers and to act in coordination with the Israelis to destroy Hamas's and Islamic Jihad's organizational framework in the West Bank. Greg, we already discussed this. There is a very wide gulf between thinking and acting. Suicide bombings are a complicated organizational challenge, especially when facing restrictions on transportation and a determined opposition in the form of the IDF and the Shabak. Suicide bombings stopped when PA/Fateh was forced to act to stop their own suicide bombers and to act in coordination with the Israelis to destroy Hamas’s and Islamic Jihad’s organizational framework in the West Bank.

]]> By: Vadim http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-74538 Vadim Tue, 04 Sep 2012 09:56:21 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-74538 No, all of "Palestine" is really the Land of Israel. These arguments are stupid. I hope you realize that. Why are we impostors? No, all of “Palestine” is really the Land of Israel.

These arguments are stupid. I hope you realize that.

Why are we impostors?

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/mass-entry-of-palestinians-into-israel-calls-for-new-approach-to-permit-regime/54981/comment-page-1/#comment-74472 Greg Pollock Mon, 03 Sep 2012 21:01:42 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=54981#comment-74472 It is rather facile to say bombings have stopped because orders have been given; nor is it true that all bombings were ordered by Arafat in his day. The question, at present, is what reasoning exists on the lived ground of Palestinians dealing with truncated possibility. To claim they do not think but ever await orders reveals, I think, an attempt to make them less than they are. I do not know what is thought on this ground. I am pretty sure most commenters at this site know not either. It is rather facile to say bombings have stopped because orders have been given; nor is it true that all bombings were ordered by Arafat in his day. The question, at present, is what reasoning exists on the lived ground of Palestinians dealing with truncated possibility. To claim they do not think but ever await orders reveals, I think, an attempt to make them less than they are.

I do not know what is thought on this ground. I am pretty sure most commenters at this site know not either.

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