21 comments for ”Thoughts following the Syrian massacre“

    
  1. I agree with most of the article, but I also think that if for example an armed aggressive opposition would exist in Germany (or any other western democracy) it would be crushed with all possible means. How many civilians would die? Proportionally more or less than in Syria? That’s for the reader to estimate.

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  3. @herbert – the key word in your (odd) comment is “democracy”.

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  5. Thank you for this post Noam!

    I wish it was you, not Yair Lapid, leading a “fresh” voice in your country’s politics.

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  7. “Toppling the regime in Damascus should be the top priority these days”
    1) For whom should this be a top priority?
    2) How is it to be done?

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  10. Aside from the geopolitical issue, which is dominating events at the moment, there is also the example of Lybia. The entire world was appalled at the violence Qadaffi turned on his own people and wanted to DO SOMETHING. The something turned into a bloody civil war, and the scale of the violence has doubtless given some people misgivings.

    .
    The impulse to DO SOMETHING is wellmeaning, but the consequences can sometimes be worse than the original problem. The bloodshed now can be measured, but the level of bloodshed that would result from an invasion of Syria to topple Assad might be immeasurably more.

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  12. There was an article in Al Jazeera the other day (see below) that suggested that Israel is in part responsible for the atrocities being committed in Syria, saying that Israel has worked to enflame sectarian violence and foment instability (and that this had also been done in Iraq).

    I was wondering whether anyone knows if this is a credible assertion or not. I feel like this charge completely deprives the Syrian people of agency, and is an inappropriate and false accusation, and I wanted to slam it as bullshit, but I thought I’d check in with you guys here at 972 first and ask whether I’m completely off base or not…

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/01/20121281167973520.html

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  14. aviva – what do you find questionable about the article?

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  16. I just didn’t know if it was factually accurate or not. It seemed a bit much, but then I’m still in process of accepting and acknowledging Israel’s role in various despicable actions. I grew up in a liberal Zionist kind of household (whatever that means) and never really got the picture until more recently. And although Israel does plenty of rotten crap, there are plenty of lies out there as well. I usually tend to accept Al Jazeera’s version of reality, but it somehow hit my “I don’t know about this one” button. Maybe the aggressive bashing tone? Or maybe I’m just overly sensitive to such things. Again, the lack of agency given to Syrian’s was also problematic for me to accept, and I have no idea if Israel was actually involved in this (there didn’t seems to be evidence for the claims at any rate). I tried to look the general narrative up, and the only similar articles I found were what I consider to be conspiratorial drivel, saying that Israel and Jews are responsible for everything that is messed up in this world, etc., but I tend to trust AJ so I didn’t know. I certainly don’t want to believe the article, and maybe that’s why I’m reluctant to trust it. Anyway–I thought maybe someone here was better informed than I am, and could comment on the accusations.

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  18. @Aviva: This is an AJ Op-Ed, not a news article.

    And yes, it blames Israel for the Syrian uprising, not the fact that, y’know, Assad oppresses his people: “The Mossad is also brilliant at infiltrating Arab movements, as Palestinians will bitterly attest, and has been sending agents across the Syrian border to gather intelligence and stoke “tribal” divisions for decades”

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  20. Oops. Sorry for the spelling/grammar errors. I need to proofread BEFORE I ‘submit comment’.

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  22. As expected, I agree with Aristeides here. Nobody knows what the post-Assad regime will be like. We can be reasonably sure that it won’t be a human rights paradise either. We’re all appalled by these reports of repression, but well-meaning intervention can make things even worse. Also, I know this is considered a dirty word in some quarters, but shouldn’t national interest play at least some role in foreign policy? I’m addressing that to patriotic (leftist) Israelis here. Anyway, there’s very little that Israel can do about this one way or the other.

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  24. Thanks for writing about Syria, a large elephant in the left room (silence).

    What does one feel?

    1. Incoherence, at not having anywhere near a clear picture of what is going on.
    2. Outrage, that a regime that seeks credibility from anywhere would instigate policies and practices that lead to mass murder.
    3. Grief for the people and families of the people killed.
    4. Despair, at the prospect of no good answer.

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  26. Ridiculous to draw moral equivalence between settlements and the individual hacking to death of children. It doesn’t seem you’ve quite learned the lesson about not supporting tyrants, despite your claims to the contrary – casting the US in the same light as Russia and China at this point in time does not say much about your sympathy for the people of Syria.

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  28. I remember 10-12 years ago, when the Taliban was reaching a peak of extremism in Afghanistan, with the stonings, shutting schools, the burqas, the Buddhas blown up. I couldn’t help wanting to DO SOMETHING to stop them.

    .
    Now we see the consequences of doing something – corruption, civil conflict, rising civilian deaths, and a resurgent Taliban. I can’t say it was worthwhile. I can’t say that the situation now is any better than what it used to be.

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  30. How many Syrians are you prepared to have killed in order to establish a solution acceptable yo you?

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  32. Noam–as always, thank you.
    *
    @Aviva–the true heroes are the everyday people–Israeli, Palestinian, Jewish Diaspora, Palestinian diaspora– stepping out of their own narratives/teachings to see more clearly. Sometimes, we may find ourselves bending too far, and it’s good to ask questions and to keep this in check and never to be too sure of anything, but it’s always better to err by bending too far for justice and self-reflection, rather than bending too far to avoid upsetting truths. So: thank you. If everyone were doing the brave work you’re doing, we’d live in a very different world, and each person makes a big difference.

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  34. Hey,
    does anyone remember how before the killings started, many Syrian civilians attempted to cross the border into the Golan Heights?

    And
    how some of them did? And one even made it Tel-Aviv to be received with open arms by like-minded people?

    And
    how it was the IDF that was shooting Syrians for those two weeks?

    And
    how then Bibi and his cabinet spoke to Assad over the pages of our own daily papers – and told him to keep control of his fuckin’ borders – or else Israel will?

    And
    how that trickle of people stopped completely – and no more Syrians tried to cross the border into the Golan Heights?

    And
    how only then did we start hearing of Assad using his army to shoot his own citizens to keep them inside their cities?

    Man,
    Assad should get a medal for keeping our borders safe. From Bibi hisself.
    Fo’Realz!

    How’s that for a big white elephant in the room?
    - Maybe we should talk about Syria too?
    - But it’s got so little to do with us…
    - Well, we write about China and Russia as obstacles to justice.
    - Oh, yeah. That way we can avoid discussing the merits of the claims of “American Imperialism”. That’s shown itself to be completely false in the case of oil-pumping Libya where America intervened, or our-ally-Mubarak’s Egypt where it didn’t, or Iraq, or Afghanistan, or…elephant? what elephant?

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  36. Syria’s government = lunatics who slaughter their own people.

    Lebanon’s government = includes Hezbollah.

    Palestinians government = they voted for Hamas.

    And that is why Israel hasn’t been able to make peace with the neighbors. People need to stop putting so much blame on Israel for being unable to make peace with nutjobs.

    Everyone can and should criticize Israel for valid stuff, but come on, look at the neighboring leaderships!

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  38. The old “we’re bad but they’re worse!” line from scumbag steve.

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  40. the reporting here seems amazingly deferential to the claims of armed rebel groups and that of the washington post. please note that even the washington post article mentioned its inability to confirm the specifics, and even cited countering testimony from the “other side”. i want assad gone, but think a popular unarmed Evolution would be best. this has gotten *much* more violent now that we have militant groups, unrepresentative of the civilian population, that are targeting both syrian forces AND civilians. YES you read that correctly…. not only has assad hit civilians, but so has terrorist groups and some militants. this is a western/saudi/turkish/israeli backed violent revolution, and will not end well…. no matter how it evolves (or should i say, devolves?). grow up, and look at the ENTIRE history of regimes changes in the REGION. we would would be dumb to not play a role, but our role is not good. we want OUR guys in there, and the new regime will be same as the old, but armed and financed and backed by the “western” powers, and the usual suspects in the gulf. http://wikileaks.cabledrum.net/cable/2006/12/06DAMASCUS5399.html



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