Comments on: J Street Conference Update I: Do Israelis care about peace?

By: Koshiro

Koshiro — Thu, 03 Mar 2011 18:31:02 +0000

“Only the crushing defeat they suffered made them realize that war was not the way and THEN they came to realize that cooperation with the former enemy was the best policy.”

Also nonsense. In the case of Germany, it’s especially obvious, since the previous bitter defeat in WW1 did not produce any such desire, but merely continuing resentment and hostility. It’s made more obvious by the fact that Russia/the Soviet Union, which contributed far more to the German defeat, is still reviled among many Germans – especially East Germans.

By the way, congratulations for completely missing the point: It was not Germany nor Japan that took the initiative in ‘cooperation with the former enemy’. It was the victors, especially the US, but also France and other Western European countries. They decided, after some hesitations, not to treat Germany and Japan as subjugated colonies, but to rebuild these countries as partners.

Israel had the same opportunity. After 1967, it could have built a Palestinian state from the ground up. This state would now likely be an ally and economic partner to Israel and could be in a close confederation of the type that’s right now, four decades late, being advertised by some people. Israel squandered this opportunity, though. Hubris.

By: Ben Israel

Ben Israel — Thu, 03 Mar 2011 16:56:03 +0000

I meant to say that it took 2 centuries for the Arabs to finally defeat the Crusaders.

By: Ben Israel

Ben Israel — Thu, 03 Mar 2011 16:54:11 +0000

Both Germany and Japan had, prior to their defeats, militaristic societies that were anti-American and anti-democratic. Only the crushing defeat they suffered made them realize that war was not the way and THEN they came to realize that cooperation with the former enemy was the best policy. Peace between Israel and the Arabs will only come when the Arabs realize that Israel is here to stay and that terrorism and war will only bring suffering on themselves. As long as they see Israel as being weak and uncertain, they will maintain the hope that force, added to an international campaign of deligitimization, will push Israel further and further down. The Arabs view the Crusades as the precedent. It took them 2 centuries to defeat the Arabs and they are following the same strategy now.

By: zvi

zvi — Thu, 03 Mar 2011 15:08:24 +0000

@Ben Israel, and how many more “crushing defeats” will Israel inflict on it’s neighbors before we understand that there is no military solution to this conflict?

By: Koshiro

Koshiro — Thu, 03 Mar 2011 14:59:29 +0000

@ Ben Israel
Nonsense. Lasting peace with Germany and Japan was the result of the remarkable efforts at reconciliation and cooperation with former enemies. The approach (in the case of Germany, after an initial, soon to be abandoned punitive start) was in both cases to build or re-build democratic structures, to restart a prospering economy and to rehabilitate them as stable, sovereign countries with close ties to the US.

Israel has blown its chance for such an approach long ago. It’s particularly ironic that you actually seem to think that total military defeat followed by humiliating occupation will somehow produce peace, when Israel has done exactly that for 43 years, without any positive results.

A real lasting peace will only result when all sides see it as acceptable and beneficial. Any “peace” based on contiual coercion by military force is just an armistice.

By: Kibbutznik

Kibbutznik — Thu, 03 Mar 2011 06:31:24 +0000

” Concerning Oslo, I think that neither side made sufficient effort to change the regional dynamic towards a true ‘peace of the brave’. The leaders talked, but Israelis and Palestinians remained ‘foreign’ to one another.

And this is why the wall, and all of the other ‘meta-physical’ walls are so pernicious. Peace can only be achieved by knowing one another. ”

Well said Zvi .

By: Ben Israel

Ben Israel — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 17:41:26 +0000

Zvi-
Peace between the United States and Japan was brought about by the United States inflicting a crushing defeat on Japan. It had nothing to do with people “knowing one another”.
Same with the peace we have today between Russia and Germany and between France and Germany. Germany total defeat in World War II brought that about. Even though there had been centuries of interpersonal relations between Germans and the French and Russians, this did not prevent them from going to war with one another repeatedly. Only Germany’s being smashed from the air and on the ground brought the Germans around to the realization that peace was better than war.

By: zvi

zvi — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 16:34:59 +0000

Thank you for for the comment Ali – why don’t you publish it in English so that others can appreciate it too (yes I know what you said, but I would rather that you translate it into your own words).

Concerning Oslo, I think that neither side made sufficient effort to change the regional dynamic towards a true ‘peace of the brave’. The leaders talked, but Israelis and Palestinians remained ‘foreign’ to one another.

And this is why the wall, and all of the other ‘meta-physical’ walls are so pernicious. Peace can only be achieved by knowing one another.

By: Ali

Ali — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 04:28:33 +0000

Raed:

إرحمنا من هذه السخافات، و ساعد حلفائك لتجدوا حل للمشكلة بدلا من إستفزاز الطرف الآخر.
بالمناسبة أنا عربي أيضا

By: Dahlia Scheindlin

Dahlia Scheindlin — Wed, 02 Mar 2011 02:43:34 +0000

Raed, your comment has been slightly edited for inappropriate content. Please read our comments policy. Thanks! http://972mag.com/972-magazines-policy-for-commenting/