Comments on: Israeli response to fly-in proves West Bank is the Palestinians’ prison

By: TLA

TLA — Thu, 19 Apr 2012 00:11:40 +0000

David, I don’t like meaningless debates. You understood my point, and as opposed to you – I’m not a lawyer. So forgive me if I cannot articulate as well as you with cases and precedences.
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My argument was, and still is, and will be, that foreigners in the US do not have the same rights as the citizens.
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We seem to be now in agreement on that, even though you had your objections to that statement before.
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I consider the matter closed. If you feel in any way insulted – I feel pity for you.
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What I wanted to prove to all the morons here was that Israel did nothing wrong, and I took your attempt at discrediting my argument as an objection to it. If you do not object to it – you should have clearly stated that from the beginning, and you didn’t. You claimed I was wrong, where I was not. That was why I called you a liar.
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Since you only wanted to argue about semantics which have no meaning to the point I made, and by the way of doing it you made my point look invalid where it was perfectly valid – there’s a word for it: TROLL.

By: max

max — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:57:07 +0000

David44, there’re unfortunately a few trolls on the site that do get on one’s nerves when trying to have a serious debate, and TLA mistook you for one of them. In fact, I’m impressed by his patience, ever trying to reason where the goal is to frustrate and mock

By: David44

David44 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:47:34 +0000

@TLA
“You decided to prove that one of my statements was wrong, and after proving it – claimed that the whole point I made is wrong.”

Sigh. I never claimed that the whole point you made was wrong, if by that you mean your entire argument about the legitimacy of Israel’s expulsion of the activists. That question never interested me very much. But you DID make false generalizations about foreigners lacking rights under the US constitution, whereas most constitutional rights are just as much available to foreigners as to citizens. Your false statement there frankly mattered to me much more than your argument about Israel, since I live in the US and US law matters to me infinitely more than Israeli politics; in particular I don’t want readers here to mistakenly think (as far too many Americans sadly do think) that the Constitution offers its protections to citizens alone.

I only ever focused on correcting you on that narrow point, but for some reason – founded in nothing whatever that I said – you took this as an attack on your entire argument, which it was not. And you then escalated it into personal insults, for no very good reason except (it appears) a strong dislike of being corrected. And despite your inability to prove anything I said false, you seem unwilling to retract those insults except in a way that garnishes them with more insults of the same sort.

I don’t know how old you are, but this behavior is that I would expect of a teenager, not an adult. When I was 15 or so, I too disliked being corrected on factual matters. I grew out of it; I hope you will.

By: TLA

TLA — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:22:22 +0000

(and David, I don’t want to continue calling you a liar as it seems to be a burning point with you, but when I said that “constitutional rights don’t apply”, and you then responded “you’re wrong, SOME rights SOMETIMES do apply” – it is not being right. So I won’t say that I’ve proven you’re a liar, but deep inside your soul, you probably know that you lied).

By: TLA

TLA — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:19:34 +0000

@David, you totally got me confused. Constitutional rights don’t apply to non-citizens, you said it yourself. Why is it untrue then? Because some rights in some circumstances do apply? Well, that’s exactly what I said: you only have the rights explicitly granted!
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You’re not a liar. You decided to prove that one of my statements was wrong, and after proving it – claimed that the whole point I made is wrong.
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You’re right, its not a lie per se, it is dishonesty and manipulation.
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You understood exactly what I said, you know exactly that I was right, and yet instead of talking about my point you keep avoiding the discussion by arguing about the semantic.
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Does it make you feel any better? Because any way I look at it – an honest discussion with you is nowhere to be found.

By: David44

David44 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 22:10:15 +0000

@TLA:
No, it’s not “the way you said it”, or “semantics”, it’s the fact that you said things that were UNTRUE (e.g “constitutional rights don’t apply to non-citizens”). You should be able to tell the difference.

As to why I “expect them to have the same rights in Israel”, why do you imagine that I believe such a thing? Where have I ever said that Israel acted wrongly in turning away these activists? I have expressed no view on that matter whatever: all I have done is shown you where you made false factual statements in the course of constructing your arguments.

And I am still waiting for you to meet my challenge: quote my exact words from anything I have posted here and tell me how they are false. If you cannot do so, perhaps you might have the good grace to retract your repeated accusation that I am a “liar”.

By: TLA

TLA — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 21:13:57 +0000

@David, so you agree I’m right, you just don’t like the way I said it? Wonderful.
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Semantics aside, since we now both agree that citizens and visitors do not have the same rights, why do you expect them to have the same rights in Israel?

By: David44

David44 — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 19:38:12 +0000

“The parallel I’ve made was that citizens and non-citizens DON’T HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS. You’ve brought the quotes and references to prove that to be true.”
Indeed I have (in passing) – but that was not how you expressed the point previously and that was hence not the point against which I was arguing. Once again: Your explicit claim was that “constitutional rights don’t apply to non-citizens (even the permanent residents, not to mention visitors)”. You later (when I proved you wrong about the permanent residents) maintained the claim that constitutional rights apply “only for PERMANENT RESIDENTS. Not visitors. Not tourists. Not people in transit to some other place”. Once again I proved you wrong, showing that many constitutional rights apply not only to permament residents, but to visitors and tourists as well.
Your response to being proved wrong: you once again claim that I am a “liar”. My challenge: quote my exact words from anything I have posted here and tell me how they are false. Remember, my exact words – not someone else’s words (nobody else here speaks for me), and not some vague version of what you think my argument is. My bet is that you can’t do it.

By: TLA

TLA — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:31:22 +0000

David: “Now, I’m sure you can try to make some new distinctions that will support your argument better, but in the form in which you stated it, you once again made a clear factual error. Perhaps it would be a good time for you to stop making parallels between Israeli and US law until you learn some more about the latter …”
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As others, you’re trying to prove your point by lying and misrepresenting the facts.
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The parallel I’ve made was that citizens and non-citizens DON’T HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS. You’ve brought the quotes and references to prove that to be true.
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Now you claim that under certain circumstances and given the certain conditions, non-citizens do get to share SOME of the rights with citizens.
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So if it is true for the US, why is Israel not allowed to decide what conditions and what circumstances are right for them?
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The blind hatred that you guys have makes you achieve exactly the opposite of what you’re trying. You’re liars, bigots, hypocrites, and even if some of your claims are correct – they’ll just go unnoticed because every reasonable person will cross-check some of the lies you’re trying to spread and will just ignore everything else you’re saying.
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Believe me that many people in the US are sympathetic to Palestinians.
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But setting up an anti-semitic site spreading hatred and lies against Israel will only make them think twice about what side they’re going to support.
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I made my decision. Just after reading a couple of articles and comments to them, and then comparing what I’ve read here to the mainstream press – I have no intentions whatsoever of treating you guys as anything but a bunch of liars.

By: TLA

TLA — Wed, 18 Apr 2012 18:15:23 +0000

@David: “So, given the arguments that TLA ACTUALLY made (as opposed to the arguments that a charitable reader might have liked him to make), I stand by my contention that he has repeatedly misinterpreted US law in making his case.” – you can stand by as much as you want, it doesn’t make you right:-)
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““the Due Process Clause [of the Constitution] applies to all persons within the United States, including aliens, whether their presence is lawful, unlawful, temporary, or permanent.”” – That is not what factually happens. Admission decisions are not made by judges, people who are refused entry cannot appeal, and the denial of immigration benefits is NOT infringing foreigners’ rights. So you may claim whatever you want, FACTS show that you’re plain wrong.
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But hey, Israeli law is a precedence law, like the US. Why don’t you file a lawsuit?