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Israeli propaganda film: "Dark" Oriental Jews and "light" of civilization

A newly discovered Israeli propaganda film from the 1950′s reveals the depths of racism applied to Oriental Jewish children who came to Israel – and how it was justified by militarism and the need for disciplined soldiers

Last weekend, Lihi Yona published here a post describing and explaining her self-identification as an Arab Jew. Although not new (Yona herself cites a 2003 book by Yehouda Shenhav, and use of the term stretches back to Albert Memmi and his novel “The Pillar of Salt”), this identification was revived recently by the inspiration of the Arab Spring. Those who chose to adopt this identity do it as an act of defiance – both against the traditional underprivileged place reserved for “Oriental” Jews within Israel, and against separation-based nationalism that excludes Israel and its Jews – especially “Oriental” Jews – from the Arab world.

As if to provide the perfect illustration to why such rethinking is needed, Channel 2 has dug up an old Israeli propaganda film about the forced Europeanisation of Jewish immigrants from Arab countries, told through the story of a devoted European-Jewish soldier girl, “Ruthie”, and a filthy shack-dwelling Yemenite-Jewish boy, “Sa’adia”.

The racism reeking from the 1953 film beggars belief: Sa’adia, we are told by the narrator, lives “in darkness”, eats with his hands, smokes in bed and gets beat up by his parents; Ruthie reads, writes and eats with a knife and fork. The narration begins with “In the name of the World of Light, Ruthie will descend into the Dark World of the immigrant camp; she will give of her light to Sa’adia and bring him up to her level.” It goes downhill from there:

Channel 2, which hardly conceals its disgust at the film, went further and brought together the daughters of the soldier girl (real name Talia Bauman, later chief psychiatrist of the Ichilov Hospital in Tel Aviv); the narrator from the film’s voiceover; and one of Sa’adia’s friends from the film; the channel’s report ends with a plea to viewers to find Sa’adia himself.

To me, the most poignant moment is Sa’adia’s friend  - now in his late 60′s – insists he is not remotely offended at being presented as a fly-covered wildling, sprayed with chemicals, and drilled into “civilisation”, because this is how him and his kids, later soldiers, won the Six Day War. In other words, the de-Arabising was good because it let us beat the Arabs (and, by implication, prove we were worthy and even essentially needed Israeli Jews).

And where is Sa’adia himself? Viewers found the answer within days of broadcast. Sa’adia, real name Zecharia Shalom, was killed in the Six Day War, in the battle for Jerusalem. He left behind a wife, and two children – the younger, an eight-months-old boy.

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  • COMMENTS

    1. Ex Israeli

      I agree, Dimi. The moment you described is indeed the most important. The whole point of Israel is: Can you shoot? Can you kill Arabs? In Israel only those who contributes towards that end are the civilised. Thats how this country was designed I’m affraid.

      Reply to Comment
    2. Henry Weinstein

      Relax: it’s a 1951 film.
      Do you think the USA, France, GB, the USSR, were promoting post-segregation, post-colonial, post-totalitarism educational films at that time?
      By the way, the metaphysical conflict between Darkness and Light is an Indo-Iranian religious concept… Also Sprach the IDF!
      More recently Manicheism – very popular religion in the Roman Empire, founded by the Persian Mani! – was the hardcore digest of this very ancient cosmology…
      And, of course, the proto-Zoroastrian Gospel according to St John is loaded with concepts and images coming from the Persian cosmology…
      Theology without frontiers!

      Reply to Comment
    3. Danny

      It seems that racism is imprinted in the DNA of the state, so much so as to make the same people who suffered from it in 1950′s into some of today’s leading racists. All the talk about Israel being a pluralistic, open-minded and multi-cultural society is bogus and this video shows that this was the case from the very beginning. Israel despises the Middle Eastern culture in which it exists and has sought to denigrate and mock its Arab neighbors at every chance. The sad fact is that Israel doesn’t really belong in the Middle East.

      Reply to Comment
    4. Ben Isrrael

      For the sake of comparison, I would hope that Israel would broadcast the 40+ part film made in Egypt a couple of years ago and broadcast throughout the Arab world “proving” that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are true! Show us how, by comparison, the modern Arab film industry is NOT racist, in your eyes.
      Closer to home, here at 972, someone started a thread showing an appliance that has a certificate from the Halacha and Technology Institue saying the device can be used on Shabbat…the idea of presenting this item was to show how primitive and hypocritical Orthodox Jews are. There’s modern “progressive” tolerance for you!

      Reply to Comment
    5. Ziv

      It is well known in Israeli history how the Yemanite Jews were treated on arrival to Israel in the 50s. It’s even worse as the parents and children were separated and kids were sent to adoption with Ashkenazi parents. However, I suspect that pulling this film out from the archives today and referencing it to what Israel is now can also be considered an act of propaganda as it does not show it in context of what the “norm” was at that time.

      Reply to Comment
    6. Philos

      Ben Israel, why are you comparing Egyptian apples to Israeli oranges? One does not cancel out the other.
      Ziv, what’s the context of the time exactly? That I am infuriated by this video and by stories from my own grandparents about how they were doused for lice IS the context of the time. That my grandparents accept it as the price of admission and that my parents don’t want to think about it is irrelevant. Always the third generation wants the answers and demands the justice on behalf of their grand-parents and parents. I refuse to be a self-hating Iraqi like my parents are. It really irritates them when I pronounce my “ein”, “chet” and “resh” properly because that’s how “arsim” speak they tell me….

      Reply to Comment
    7. Albert Memmi

      It is beyond disingenuous to invoke Albert Memmi in defense of the “Arab Jew” identity. Albert Memmi wrote, in 1974, an eloquent essay explaining this idea as an insult to the actual experience of Jews in Arab countries. See http://www.jimena.org/Memmi.htm

      “We would have liked to be Arab Jews. If we abandoned the idea, it is because over the centuries the Moslem Arabs systematically prevented its realization by their contempt and cruelty. It is now too late for us to become Arab Jews. Not only were the homes of Jews in Germany and Poland torn down, scattered to the four winds, demolished, but our homes as well. Objectively speaking, there are no longer any Jewish communities in any Arab country, and you will not find a single Arab Jew who will agree to return to his native land.

      I must be clearer: the much vaunted idyllic life of the Jews in Arab lands is a myth! The truth, since I am obliged to return to it, is that from the outset we were a minority in a hostile environment; as such, we underwent all the fears, the agonies, and the constant sense of frailty of the underdog. As far back as my childhood memories go – in the tales of my father, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles – coexistence with the Arabs was not just uncomfortable, it was marked by threats periodically carried out.”

      Reply to Comment
    8. Albert Memmi

      “Thus I arrived in France, and found myself up against the legend which was current in left-wing Parisian salons: the Jews had always lived in perfect harmony with the Arabs. I was almost congratulated for having been born in such a land where racial discrimination and xenophobia were unknown. It made me laugh. I heard so much nonsense about North Africa, and from people of the best intentions that, honestly, I did not react to it at all. The chattering only began to worry me when it became a political argument that is, after 1967. The Arabs then made up their minds to use this travesty of the truth, which fell on willing ears once the reaction against Israel had set in after her victory. It is now time to denounce this absurdity.”

      Reply to Comment
    9. Ben Israel

      Philos-
      I am pointing out the hypocrisy of those posting things like this. Many of the 972 contributors want to show that Israel is a incorrigibly racist society not fit to be associated with the “progressive” countries and people. This, of course, is a lie, Israel is less racist than all of its neighbors. If there is racism in Israel and ‘progressives” oppose racism, then they have to oppose it everywhere, and if they want Israel to be condemend for being “racist”, then they should demand that ALL racist countries, including Egypt and the Palestinians and the other “saints” in our neighborhood be condemned as well. Actually, these ‘progressive’ counldn’t care less about racism, they simply want to blast Israel for other reasons.

      Reply to Comment
    10. Philos

      Ben Israel, your logic is skewed. While Israel might be less racist than its neighbours (and more democratic) IT IS MORE racist than Western European or Canada or the USA AND LESS democratic than them. Saying that Israel isn’t racist because its neighbours are more racist is like saying China isn’t repressive because North Korea and Burma are worse. I think you’re a clever guy and I think you’re perfectly aware of the incongruence of your argument. Certainly, Egyptian persecution of Copts and Syrian persecution of all its citizens and Palestinian persecution of Christians ought and must be criticized. I don’t disagree but comparing Israel to its neighbours when Israel claims it is a “Western liberal democracy” isn’t comparing it to what it claims to be. Unless you are acknowledging that Israel is a rather undemocratic and militaristic quasi theocracy in which case we can definitely start comparing Israel to its neighbours. So is Israel an undemocratic, militaristic, quasi theocracy?

      Reply to Comment
    11. Deïr Yassin

      @ Philos
      “While Israel might be less racist than its neighbours ….” I can’t think of a country behaving worse than Israel, where the native population is subjugated by people of foreign origin, not free to live and move around on their own land, and I’m speaking of ’48 Palestinians.
      “Syrian persecution of all its citizens”
      That’s called a brutal dictatorship, and has nothing to do with ‘racism’
      I would love to have more informations about the “Palestinian persecution of Christians” as I’m very concerned about this for personal reasons. What do YOU know that I’ve missed on that subject ?

      Reply to Comment
    12. arlosoroff

      DANNY – you said, “israel doesnt belong in the middle east”.

      do israeli’s belong in the middle east?

      does that mean that something non-middle eastern cannot be in the middle east?

      do blacks not belong in europe…?

      get outta here with that argument, it holds ZERO weight,

      Reply to Comment
    13. arlosoroff

      yeh deir yassin, brutal regime yada yada, over 2,500 dead in a few months, but who cares, its arabs killing arabs! or alawites killing sunni’s, but who can tell, it sure as hell aint racism!

      but i digress, this video is eye opening and disturbing, and also nothing new. however im glad mainstream media channels are covering it. we have hope!

      Reply to Comment
    14. Ben Israel

      Philos-
      Fine, you want to call for the US and other “civilized” countries to cut off relations or cut off aid or whatever to Israel, so be it. But, as a good “internationalist progressive” you have to demand the US do the same to Egypt, the Palestinians, Pakistan ,etc, ALL OF WHOM receive considerable aid from the US and who are all more “racist” and less democratic. I am waiting to hear this.

      Reply to Comment
    15. Palestinian

      @ ARLOSOROFF, so according to your argument , if Arabs kill Arabs then its okay to murder Palestinians and steal their land ?Does violence anywhere on this earth justify Israel’s crimes ?

      Reply to Comment
    16. Bosko

      Palestinian asks …
      .
      “Does violence anywhere on this earth justify Israel’s crimes ?”
      .
      Palestinian Arab crimes against Israeli citizens justify whatever response hat it takes to stop Palestinian Arab crimes against Israelis.

      Reply to Comment
    17. arlosoroff

      palestinian, you think i am attempting to justify violence?

      an immoral action is an immoral action and cannot be justified by any ideology.

      my ONLY point was to disrupt deir yassins categories of eeeevil. syria’s situation is apparently not as important/eeevil because its not ‘racially orientated’, and merely a “brutal dictatorship”, whereas as jews killing palestinians, and vice versa, is, (because, jews and palestinians are apparently both races?)
      its sectarian nature of both cases, race or otherwise, is very clear.

      maybe you missed the sarcasm?

      Reply to Comment
    18. Philos

      @ DY, OK I looked up a few HR reports and the only persecution of Christians I read regarded intermarriage (or rather the lack thereof) and certain coercive practices by the Muslim majority when it came to a Christian bride or groom and a Muslim would be bridge or groom. In that sense I suppose it’s not much different from Israel.
      Also two-wrongs don’t make a right. That Israel is an institutionally racist state doesn’t make it right for anyone to be reflexively racist against Israeli individuals per se, or for the virulent anti-Jewish/Israeli publications in state press, particularly Egypt. I am anti-racist and I don’t think there is any justification for it. Ever. We shouldn’t be hating on people even when their governments behave badly. For example, I feel sympathy for all the German civilians who were killed and raped in WW2 even though their government was responsible for horrendous atrocities across Europe. I even think its tragic that of the 250,000 German POWs who went to the Gulag only a few thousands made out alive. Two-wrongs never make a right.

      Reply to Comment
    19. Bosko

      @Philos
      Your sentiments are admirable but I am afraid they are incredibly naive. For your information, for nearly the last 100 years a war has been going on between two competing national movements, the Arab and the Jewish national movements. We, the Jews as in the Jewish people (not in a religious sense) can only hope to come to terms with them. They on the other hand have not even tried to keep it a secret that they want to finish us off for good. So for us it has been a war of survival. Even though in the last few years, some of them woke up that tactically it would be better for them to pretend that it isn’t so because they came to terms with our existence. But everything they actually do, suggests otherwise.
      .
      But you compare Israel to other western democracies who are not besieged and are not surrounded by hostile neighbours. Go and read up how they behaved during THEIR war of survival in WW2. They had censorship, they had internment camps, they jailed and executed people whom they considered to be collaborating with their enemies. They also fought their war ruthlessly. Remember Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
      .
      If you want to compare apples to apples, not to oranges, then compare us to Western democracies as they behaved during THEIR war of survival. You might find that we don’t stack up all that badly then …

      Reply to Comment
    20. Deïr Yassin

      @ Philos
      I have difficulties seeing any possible comparison between the relative absence of intermarriage among Christian and Muslim Palestinians – and you seem to think the Muslims are the part who opposes this (when there is opposition) – and the institutionalized discrimination that Israeli Palestinians are exposed to within the State of Israel for the mere fact of being Palestinians.
      Contrary to the Palestinians within Israel, the Christian Palestinians in the non-Israeli part of Palestine are overrepresented in comparison to their demographics in ALL fields, economically, politically, artistically and intellectually, so you’ll have difficulties convincing me of the persecution.
      I wonder if you’re aware of the enormous amount of prominent Christians in Palestinian society and among Palestinian nationalists, starting with my personal hero George Habash.

      @Arlosoroff
      Maybe you should just stick to analysing what I actually wrote instead of projecting your own fantasm onto my statement on Syria. You write “Syria’s situation is apparently not as important because it’s not ‘racially’ oriented”
      Thank for confirming my point. That was exactly what I wrote to Philos. Syria is ruled by a brutal regime – and the Palestinians have paid their price too – but it’s not based on racism, and that was my point. Everybody who opposes the regime is in trouble whereas in Israel, Jews can criticize the State and its politics much more freely than an Israeli Palestinian. In Israel, the IDF don’t kill demonstrating Jews whereas peaceful Palestinian demonstrators, citizens of the State, have been gunned down on more than one occasion.
      Just as “your” killing on that beach in Tel Aviv was hardly a racist crime since the killers turned out to be fellow Jews….

      Reply to Comment
    21. Henry Weinstein

      @ Philos
      Just a few factual remarks:
      You write “250.000 German POWs who went to the Gulag”.
      If you take only the battle of Stalingrad, they were 91.000, 5.000 survived.
      More than a million German POWs died in Soviet Union.
      But…
      According to modern Russian military sources, Nazi took 4.6 million Soviet POWs, 1.8 survived.
      Soviet Union paid the higher price; Hitler+Stalin= military deaths 8.8 millions, civilian deaths 14.6 millions.
      Poland is not far.
      See Gustav Herling and Vassili Grossman’s books.
      Never forget.
      It’s the Russian people who defeated the Nazi.

      Reply to Comment
    22. Bosko

      The Palestinian Arabs are just victims to “racist Israel”. They don’t victimise Israelis and they are not racist against Israeli Jews …
      .
      So much for the myth. Remember what the innocent non racist Palestinian Arabs did to two Israeli prisoners who they captured when they lost their way and PA forces captured them in ramallaah? Subsequdntly, these so called Palestinian police allowed the mobs to drag the two Israelis out and lynch them. They were proudly displaying their blood soaked hands. That was not institutionalised racism was it?

      Reply to Comment
    23. Deïr Yassin

      Well, Bosko. As an Aussie, and thus an English native speaker, how come you don’t understand what “institutionalized” means ?
      > ‘institutionalized’ is equivalent to ‘part of a structured system’. Institutionalized racism or discrimination in Israel is incorporated into the laws of the State, officially favorizing Jews over non-Jews in almost every aspect of life.
      > The killing of two soldiers of an army of occupation – I remind you – is thus not part of any institutionalized discrimination. In fact, it has absolutely no relevance except that you looked for an occasion to mention this, and I don’t see how the way they were killed has anything to do with ‘institutionalized’. Oh, I forgot: you don’t know the word.
      And you also forgot to mention that these two soldiers were killed just after 13 Israeli Palestinians had been killed while peacefully demonstrating in october 2000. THAT was part of the institutionalized discrimination as the IDF never kill protesting Jews.

      Reply to Comment
    24. Bosko

      We get it Deir Yassin. Two off duty reservists who lose their way and get captured by Palestinian police are fair game. So were the Jewish prisoners of war who were captured by Arabs in Gush Etzion. You condone the execution and lynching of Israeli prisoners of war, but you are not a racist and the fact that the Palestinian police looked the other way while large numbers of Arabs from Ramallah carried out the lynching, was not institutional? And the fact that none of them stood trial and were not punished, that was not institutional consent of such acts of barbarity?

      Muddying the waters by listing preceding acts by either side won’t help your case because for every act that you bring up against Israel. I can bring up Palestinian Arab atrocities against Israelis. As I said, there is 100 year war going on between Arabs and Israelis. So stop making out that you are only victims but not victimisers. Once you acknowledge that simple fact, who knows, maybe it will be possible to make peace ..

      Reply to Comment
    25. arlosoroff

      yassin you talk of institutionalised racism, care to comment on the ruling power structures of syrias alawite?
      or what about the institutionalised discrimination against palestinians in lebanon? isnt that why they’re all forced to still live in refugee camps, barred from a long list of professions and cant even own property? (and all this between neigbours who arnt even trying to kill eachother!)

      get your head out of your ass once in a while.

      yes there are problems here and inshallah we can change them. but DY are you interested in peace with jewish neigbours, or just in getting rid of israel and sending all those europeans home?

      Reply to Comment
    26. Ben Israel

      Istitutionalized racism is part and parcel of Arab society, and I am including clan and tribal identification as part of this “racist” rubrick. Even in Israel, inside the Arab municipalities which are elected on a democratic basis, ruling clans appoint their own people to the choice jobs.
      On a larger scale, the Syrian Alawites and well as minority Christians who are not in a position to challenge them hold the top governmental positions and the top positions in the security forces and they have been able to suppress the majority Sunni population for decades..
      All Arab dictators like Saddam Hussein, who came from the minority Sunnis, used clan, tribal and religious rivalries to play off one group against another.
      In Egypt, Copts are officially discrimated against, not only in religious affairs where there are restrictions on building churches, but in hiring. Nasser promoted Copts and they did well under him, but starting with Sadat, who originally played up to the Muslims, their situation deteriorated. Arab societies are among the most racist in the world, which is why 972 and other “progressives” habitually ignore this problem because it makes their attacks on Israel for being racist ridiculous.

      Reply to Comment
    27. Philos

      @ Henry Weinstein: thanks for the facts but my point wasn’t to say who won the war. My point was to say that the killing of innocent or otherwise unarmed people on the grounds of their race or behavior of their state is unjustified and morally wrong.
      To DY, Ben Israel and others I find it saddening that none of you ever relate to any unequivocally anti-racist messages. You ignore these humanist appeals and go on with your unending arguments about who is worse, who suffered more and who deserves no pity. It’s saddening. Really, really saddening. Acknowledging the pain of another does not diminish one’s own pain. Acknowledging another’s humanity makes one human. If the message of the Sa’adia clip means anything it is that it is the ones who can not recognize the intrinsic humanity of those they deem “animals” or “sub-humans” that are the beasts among us all.

      Reply to Comment
    28. Henry Weinstein

      But then, Ben Israel, why Israeli rightwingers are so kind with the N°1 racist & antisemitic & intolerant & puritan country in the world, Saudi Arabia?

      Reply to Comment
    29. Sylvia

      Dimi Reider -
      .

      That they dug up that propaganda film precisely as Sheli Yechimovitch and Amir Peretz are facing each other in their bid for Labor leadership is worth mentioning. It is an exercise in propaganda of its own right. They wouldn’t have shown it at this particular time if they didn’t think the Ashkenazi Left is by and large – more racist than ever.
      .

      I wouldn’t vote for Amir Peretz myself, not because he is not fit to be Prime Minister – I think he is – but because he is too idealistic to realize that one can’t go to bed with Laborite snakes and wake up unstung.
      .
      I don’t know where you find the arrogance to tell people who they are, particularly to those who were born, grew up, were educated in an Arab country, and left at adult age, old enough to know what is and what is not their identity. To you, their opinions seem to be of no value. That’s not patronizing? Or perhaps you accept only those views that reinforce your own idiosyncrecies?
      .

      Reply to Comment
    30. Henry Weinstein

      Philos, my point wasn’t to say who won the war but to help you to visualize the scale of the slaughter in Europe during WW2. And when I mention the Russian people, instead of saying Soviet Union or the Red Army, I pay tribute to a Martyr people, can’t you understand?
      Have a look on Gustav Herling’s A World Apart, and Vasily Grossman’s Life and Fate (and Grossman’s war articles, diaries), please.

      Reply to Comment
    31. Bosko

      @Henry Weinstein
      I am a right winger and I detest the Saudi regime and what they stand for.
      .
      @Philos
      I do relate to anti racist messages but I also know the difference between that and what Deir Yassin and her ilk do. They make everything that Israel does or does not do to be racist. When they do that, I feel the need to point out their hypocrisy for ignoring their own actions.
      .
      I also stand by my comment to you that you are naive for expecting too much of Israel during war. Please don’t expect Israel to be a light unto the nations. Expect Israel to be as good and yes sometimes as bad as other Western democracies. Having said that, I have no problems with all of us fighting REAL acts of racism and prejudice but let’s not invent racism when it is not racism but security measures that we are talking about. For example, the security fence. And I say that even if you don’t agree with the route that they chose for the femce. Even then, you should not describe it as racist.

      Reply to Comment
    32. Deïr Yassin

      We all know you’re a right-winger, Bosko. By the way I wonder why you changed your pen name from “Right Wing Zionist” but as you wrote on Israelforum, maybe people were biased on your opinions without even analysing them.
      That procedure of introducing events that has nothing to do with the debate – here your introduction of the two Israeli soldiers killed in Ramallah in Oct 2000 – is called trolling.
      According to me, Israel was created on an original sin, and that makes everything done in the name of that State immoral. You’re basically asking a house owner who was evicted by intruders to admire the renovations and improvements made on his house – and often paid with the money stolen in his drawers -
      all while living himself in a shack in the backyard. You think that guy living in a shack in his own backyard cares about how the new Masters manage to share his belongings and what kind of internal problems they have.

      Well, that was a metaphore so I don’t expect you to understand…..

      Reply to Comment
    33. Bosko

      Deir Yassin. Please keep your stupid house owner analogies to yourself. At least I am a right winger who is willing to acknowledge that there are two house owners. In other words, I am a proponent of the two state solution. Because Palestine had two peoples. But according to you, Jews have no rights even though Jews lived in the land continuously both before and after the Arab invasion in the seventh century.
      .
      So what does that make you? It makes you a chauvinist, a racist and an extremist.

      Reply to Comment
    34. Palestinian

      @ Bosko ,I made it clear last time I’m not interested in talking to you ,but it seems my comment hit a nerve.
      Based on your claim , Israeli terrorism,land theft and occupation for 63 years justify all types and means of resistance against the occupier.

      @ ARLOSOROFF,I cant find any sarcasm in your comment, you will argue that Im not able to read between the lines bla bla bla ,simply thats what you believe in , Arabs killing Arabs justifies Israelis killing Arabs !

      Reply to Comment
    35. Bosko

      According to our Deir Yassin …
      .
      “That procedure of introducing events that has nothing to do with the debate – here your introduction of the two Israeli soldiers killed in Ramallah in Oct 2000 – is called trolling”
      .
      Really, Yassin? It seems that according to you one needs to ignore every wrong that your people perpetrate and we need to continually focus just on what Israel does or does not do. There is a name to that attitude of yours. It is called extreme BIAS and propaganda.

      Reply to Comment
    36. Bosko

      Palestinian, you say …
      .
      “@ Bosko ,I made it clear last time I’m not interested in talking to you ,but it seems my comment hit a nerve”
      .
      You made yourself clear yet you are still talking to me. I on the other hand never said that I won’t repudiate your propaganda and that’s what I’ll keep on doing. Hitting my nerve has nothing to do with it.

      Reply to Comment
    37. Deïr Yassin

      Funny, isn’t it, Bosko, when you’re asked what kind of State you propose for the Palestinians, you’re not willing to answer: you just say that depends on negociations, but we know that it only includes parts of the West Bank, so that’s more or less the shack in the backyard that I mentioned.
      Sure, a One State, bi-national or eventually federal, from the river to the sea, where the native Palestinians live in equality, sharing the land with the descendents of foreign intruders is terribly racist, extremist and chauvinists. The Afrikaaner thugs in South Africa said the same thing about Black nationalists, and see where that Apartheid state went: into the dustbins of history.
      Amandla !

      Reply to Comment
    38. Bosko

      There you go again Deir Yassin, trolling, with your silly analogies. South Africa is South Africa. Israel never was, is not and never will be South Africa.

      By the way, where is your Palestinian Arab Mandela? If you would have one, perhaps it would be easier to solve both our peoples’ problems.

      Reply to Comment
    39. Bosko

      Deir Yassin, I don’t have to tell you what kind of Palestine I envisage. It was made clear by two Israeli leaders already in 2000/2001 and in 2008. Most Israelis would have come to terms with that, even the right wingers, eventually. But it seems that neither Arafat nor Abbas would have a bar of it, I suspect because they knew that they would be dead meat if they would try to sell it to their people. There you have it. That’s why there is no solution because Israel is facing a supremacist intransigent foe. Mind you, I am sure that there are reasonable Palestinian Arabs with whom peace would be possible but they are not the majority amd they are certainly weaker than fanatics like you.

      Reply to Comment
    40. Philos

      @ Bosko, I didn’t see you first comment on my comment. I think that it is totally fallacious to compare Israel to Britain in WW2. Also the atrocities committed by the Allies against their enemies have all been atoned for; British apology for Dresden, American apology for Hirioshim and Nagasaki and an American apology for the internment camps you so fondly mentioned. So again lets compare apples with apples. We live in the 21st Century and not in London 1941. That’s an orange. War of survival…. please. Israel’s existence is hardly threatened when it’s armed to the teeth conventionally and non-conventionally. The only way its survival can be put under physical threat in the military sense is if NATO did a full naval embargo on the country. Then we’d all starve to death and there’s nothing our nuclear weapons could do about it but that isn’t likely to happen (short of massive Israeli crimes against humanity occurring, which I also think is unlikely)

      I expect too much of Israel during war…. You’re a fascist if you think we’re at war and I’ve got some nice quotes from Goering to prove it.

      Henry Weinstein, I’m pretty sure if any of those 4.1 million Russian civilians were asked they’d rather have not been “martyrs.” Which is to say that martyrs choose their fate of death. Innocent civilians that are murdered are victims. That’s why I object that in Israel they call the victims of the Holocaust martyrs. None of these people chose their terrible fate. That’s the definition of martyrdom.

      And again all of you are too stubborn to cut it out. Your very ontological security, that is your security of self, your identity, depends on the conflict and on being in conflict. Without you won’t know who you really are.

      Reply to Comment
    41. Palestinian

      I made several comments after I asked you not to comment on my comments and you didnt , this time you did , there must be a reason ! It did hit a nerve , didnt it ?
      I replied to your comment on my comment , if I didnt reply you would say that I have nothing to say .The question is why do you even read my comments if its all propaganda? cant you ignore my comments ? Why would anyone read something if he knows its rubbish ?Unless you know its the truth !

      Reply to Comment
    42. Bosko

      @Philos
      .
      “please. Israel’s existence is hardly threatened when it’s armed to the teeth conventionally and non-conventionally. The only way its survival can be put under physical threat in the military sense is if NATO did a full naval embargo on the country”
      .
      The above statement of yours makes you even more naive than I thought you were. Actually, I would add the word arrogant too (sorry for being brutally frank)So you think Israel is invincible? Ok, lets’ say Israel would face the combined armies of Egypt, Turkey, Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas. I won’t even bring Syria and Jordan into it. Would Israel win using conventional weapons only? Maybe, maybe not. Now let’s take it further …
      If it WOULD win, how long would it take it to defeat those combined enemies? 6 days? Surely even you don’t believe that? What would be our casualty rate both civilians and army? Don’t forget the missiles, I said missiles, not Qassams. What do you think Israel’s shape would be if the war would last say 6 months? Even if we would be victorious …
      Now let’s look at the alternative. Let’s say Israel would need to resort to it’s nuclear weapons to win. The enemy might be defeated, but do you think Israel would be spared if it came to that?
      .
      You say Israel is not at war? I beg to differ. Just speak to Israelis in Sderot, Ashkelon and even Beer Sheba. Israel has been at war continuoisly simce 1948. The war fluctuated from low intensity war to all put war and the lives of individuals as well as that of the country has always been under threat. Please stop deluding yourself and start acting like you are on your own side. The enemy already has enough people on their side and if they ever get the upper hand, you will be just another Jew to them. Especially if you will have the word Zionist appear in your self description. Even if you call yourself “humanist Zionist”. Deir Yassin already told you once what she thought of that. Remember?

      Reply to Comment
    43. Bosko

      Palestinian

      Please spare me with your comments on comments on comments. It just makes you sound childish. I will comment on ypur comment when I feel like it. You in turn can decide to ignore me or you can respond. Its’ all the same to me. Please yourself

      Reply to Comment
    44. Bosko

      @Philos you say …
      .
      “Also the atrocities committed by the Allies against their enemies have all been atoned for; British apology for Dresden, American apology for Hirioshim and Nagasaki and an American apology for the internment camps you so fondly mentioned”
      .
      That’s it? All they had to do is apologise and all is forgiven? Maybe we could do the same? Do what is necessary and then apologise at the end? Do you think that would work for us too? Nah, just kidding. I don’t advocate that we should do anything like Dresden, Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Not even internment camps. All I advocate is that we should stop being so hard on ourselves and make sure that we do enough to defend ourselves to ensure that our Palestinian Arab “friends” won’t be able to repeat their 4 years of suicide bombing campaign of 2000 to 2004. Would that be too much to ask? Why do you think they stopped that because we suddenly became nice to them? Or was it because we did what was necessary to stop it, things like the security fence, check points and a few other things … Personally, I think it was the latter. But what would I know? After all, I am only a right wing fascist.

      Reply to Comment
    45. Ben Israel

      Philos-
      I VEHEMENTLY reject your assertion that the British have “apologized” for Dresden and the Americans for the atomic bombs on Japan. No American or British leader has any right to apologize for those actions and THERE IS NOTHING TO APOLOGIZE FOR! One can express regret the need for such actions, but “apologize”…NEVER!

      Reply to Comment
    46. Ben Israel

      Philos-
      Jewish tradition teaches that any Jew who is killed because he is a Jew is “kadosh”..a martyr.

      Reply to Comment
    47. Palestinian

      @ Bosko , please spare me your comments on my comments , if you think I sound childish why do you even read my childish comments ,play with people with your mental age.Spare yourself these childish arguments and ignore my comments .I cant understand why do you insist on commenting on my comments, it means you want to argue with me and I made it clear I dont want to ,its like you keep ringing someone’s doorbell and you know he doesnt welcome you,so buy dignity if you dont have it and stop ringing my bell,.If I had the choice to block I wouldn’t hesitate maybe I should suggest it to the admins.And as you said its your choice , so I think I have to deal with the awful reality ,thats what Palestinians deal with every single day , noisy Zionists who :S And nobody knows maybe I am a child , would that make you feel “not smart” (aka stupid)?!

      Reply to Comment
    48. Philos

      Ben Israel, frothing at the mouth much? You may “VEHEMENTLY reject” but I am stating a historical fact. PM Tony Blair in a ceremony making Liverpool the sister-city apologized for the unnecessary deaths of German civilians. President Bill Clinton did likewise in a visit to Japan. These are facts you opposing them doesn’t invalidate the official positions of those governments and the State’s they represent. Get a grip of reality man.

      And I couldn’t care less about Jewish tradition. A murdered child is a murdered child. Not a martyr. I wouldn’t be surprised if that Jewish tradition was probably borrowed from the Jewish-Christians of the First Century CE…

      Bosko you have no idea about Israel’s military capabilities. First of all why would Egypt, Turkey and Iran along with Hezbollah form an alliance? Are you smoking crack? And thanks to Barack Obama (you were probably too busy frothing at the mouth to be aware of this) put a forward munitions base in Israel with permission for the Israelis to use the depot in times of crisis with 6-months worth of munitions. The fact is that the IDF is capable of wiping the Arab armies off the face of the Earth. Turkey is another story because Turkey have been in NATO for decades and that has significantly improved their capabilities. But again a war between Israel and Turkey is highly improbable. What you don’t understand is that Israel’s “enemies” don’t need to fire a shot. The occupation is not sustainable. All they have to do is wait for the US inevitably if the status quo continues to withhold aid to Israel. Israel won’t be able to afford the occupation, its huge and technologically sophisticated army and its minimal social welfare state.

      And there isn’t a war going on. Your hyperbole and your belief in some kind of symmetry between Israeli and Arab military capabilities I think are indicative of some phobias. Don’t worry man, I assure you, this country is a fortress… and that’s the problem. It’s becoming Masada

      P.S. I almost forgot. The Shin Bet and Central Command have attributed the calm to the PA paramilitary forces trained by General Dayton. They say that without these forces it’d be impossible to prevent terrorist atrocities in Israel. So what purpose does the wall serve when the IDF’s auxiliaries are doing their job? Put that in your pipe and smoke it

      Reply to Comment
    49. Ben Israel

      I don’t believe Blair or Clinton apologized for anything, in the sense that they were saying those attacks were wrong. They may have expressed regret for the necessity of carrying them out. In any event, any apology they would make is morally perverted..they weren’t even around at the time. If you want to post links proving your point, be my guest.

      Reply to Comment
    50. Henry Weinstein

      @ Philos
      First thing I’m not into political-fiction, and I only say on this thread it was a 1951 film, so relax ’cause it’s ridiculous to condamn 2011 Israeli society with this kind of material.
      Then I answered to you to rectify important facts concerning WW2. And I have to continue, ’cause you continue to write about historical events without being properly educated about them. You are probably a young man; I’m 51 and I’m an European born in France just a few years after these terrible events (my Dad was born in Romania in 1913, his family lived in Romania-Ukraine).
      At least read carefully my factual posts, please: 14.6 million Russian civilian deaths, and not 4.1 millions as you write. And when you say that the definition of martyrdom for you is to choose terrible death, you choose the Islamist or fanatical meaning: in Europe, Christian heritage & culture, we use this word to pay tribute to innocent people who faced evil men, racial persecutions, extermination.
      “That’s why I object that in Israel they call the victims of the Holocaut martyrs”. Listen Philos, if you reject your education and are revolted by the official Israeli ideology about the Shoah, you should come for a while in Europe to study and to distance yourself from this ideology.
      What can I say, it seems most Israelis have NO IDEA how European Jews (people like my Dad, it didn’t happen in the Middle-Age) have suffered, and refused to learn that most of us have been exterminated by all means like vermin. That’s what I call racism, Philos.

      Reply to Comment
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