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	<title>Comments on: In New Delhi, Tbilisi: What goes around, comes around</title>
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	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
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		<title>By: John Yorke</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43943</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yorke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43943</guid>
		<description>@SH,

&#039;....things could be different if we thought differently....&#039; 
Yes, that&#039;s a very good assessment but it&#039;s more especially valid if we decide to act differently as well, to approach the problem from what amounts to the opposite end of the spectrum and zero in on it from there. 

The situation has always been a seriously large one and, perhaps, never more so than now. There will thus be a need for a correspondingly large solution if any serious chance of properly remedying the matter is to be had. 

It would help if there was one we could just take down off the shelf , dust off the cobwebs and put in place right away. 

Failing that, we may just have to soldier on with what we&#039;ve got. 

Which isn&#039;t all that much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@SH,</p>
<p>&#8216;&#8230;.things could be different if we thought differently&#8230;.&#8217;<br />
Yes, that&#8217;s a very good assessment but it&#8217;s more especially valid if we decide to act differently as well, to approach the problem from what amounts to the opposite end of the spectrum and zero in on it from there. </p>
<p>The situation has always been a seriously large one and, perhaps, never more so than now. There will thus be a need for a correspondingly large solution if any serious chance of properly remedying the matter is to be had. </p>
<p>It would help if there was one we could just take down off the shelf , dust off the cobwebs and put in place right away. </p>
<p>Failing that, we may just have to soldier on with what we&#8217;ve got. </p>
<p>Which isn&#8217;t all that much.</p>
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		<title>By: John Yorke</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43926</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yorke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43926</guid>
		<description>Hezbollah, Hamas, PA, Settlers, Hilltop Youth, Ultra-orthodox, Secular, Iranian Revolutionary Guards, Shiites, Sunnis, Jews, Arabs, Christians and, in all probability, one or two atheists as well - these are only some of the people that a future peace settlement will have to contend with in order to get everyone signed up on the dotted line. And, even then, that&#039;s just for starters.

This business, therefore, cannot be dealt with piecemeal. It&#039;s no good trying to win over one or two elements in so diverse a patchwork of opposing groups. An &#039;all-or-nothing&#039; approach is what&#039;s required, one that can cater for this hugely divergent range of viewpoints and still carry the day, no matter what develops in the interim. 
Otherwise, it just ain&#039;t gonna happen.
Not now, not ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hezbollah, Hamas, PA, Settlers, Hilltop Youth, Ultra-orthodox, Secular, Iranian Revolutionary Guards, Shiites, Sunnis, Jews, Arabs, Christians and, in all probability, one or two atheists as well &#8211; these are only some of the people that a future peace settlement will have to contend with in order to get everyone signed up on the dotted line. And, even then, that&#8217;s just for starters.</p>
<p>This business, therefore, cannot be dealt with piecemeal. It&#8217;s no good trying to win over one or two elements in so diverse a patchwork of opposing groups. An &#8216;all-or-nothing&#8217; approach is what&#8217;s required, one that can cater for this hugely divergent range of viewpoints and still carry the day, no matter what develops in the interim.<br />
Otherwise, it just ain&#8217;t gonna happen.<br />
Not now, not ever.</p>
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		<title>By: sh</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43889</link>
		<dc:creator>sh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:19:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43889</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t like bumbling in after John Yorke&#039;s philosophical views from the heights, as his hints that things could be different if we thought differently end our discussions on an encouraging note. But little as I know about strategy, I don&#039;t think Hezbollah is being explained correctly. 
.
@Larry - &quot;But after Israel withdrew from Lebanon, Hizbullah’s attacks changed from being self-defense to aggression, so Israel was defending itself when it struck back in 2006.&quot;
.
They neither had closure after the 2006 war nor was Hezbollah&#039;s struggle over when we left in 2000. We tend to forget that Hezbollah, before it was Hezbollah, was a bunch of bottom-of-the-pile Lebanese Shi&#039;a Muslims from whose areas Palestinians from elsewhere launched attacks on Israel and who, therefore, suffered the brunt of our retaliations, bombings, occupations on top of their previous depredations. There were ruined lives, massive grievances, missing bodies and body parts that had still not been buried by their families. Things didn&#039;t just go back to being OK when we left in 2000. Vicky quoted someone who founded a Hope Flowers School on another thread who said that violence was the product of unhealed wounds. The source of our violence, in that case, is traceable. Why wouldn&#039;t theirs be? 
.
Iran and Hezbollah are useful to each other but not necessarily on the same page. People more expert than myself could explain that better. Lebanon&#039;s Hezbollah-supporting Shi&#039;ites, who will likely remain our neighbors no matter what happens between us and Iran, will need to be made peace with, just like the Palestinians. Seems to me that Niz (leaving out the math, which I&#039;m not qualified to challenge) has said it just about right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t like bumbling in after John Yorke&#8217;s philosophical views from the heights, as his hints that things could be different if we thought differently end our discussions on an encouraging note. But little as I know about strategy, I don&#8217;t think Hezbollah is being explained correctly.<br />
.<br />
@Larry &#8211; &#8220;But after Israel withdrew from Lebanon, Hizbullah’s attacks changed from being self-defense to aggression, so Israel was defending itself when it struck back in 2006.&#8221;<br />
.<br />
They neither had closure after the 2006 war nor was Hezbollah&#8217;s struggle over when we left in 2000. We tend to forget that Hezbollah, before it was Hezbollah, was a bunch of bottom-of-the-pile Lebanese Shi&#8217;a Muslims from whose areas Palestinians from elsewhere launched attacks on Israel and who, therefore, suffered the brunt of our retaliations, bombings, occupations on top of their previous depredations. There were ruined lives, massive grievances, missing bodies and body parts that had still not been buried by their families. Things didn&#8217;t just go back to being OK when we left in 2000. Vicky quoted someone who founded a Hope Flowers School on another thread who said that violence was the product of unhealed wounds. The source of our violence, in that case, is traceable. Why wouldn&#8217;t theirs be?<br />
.<br />
Iran and Hezbollah are useful to each other but not necessarily on the same page. People more expert than myself could explain that better. Lebanon&#8217;s Hezbollah-supporting Shi&#8217;ites, who will likely remain our neighbors no matter what happens between us and Iran, will need to be made peace with, just like the Palestinians. Seems to me that Niz (leaving out the math, which I&#8217;m not qualified to challenge) has said it just about right.</p>
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		<title>By: John Yorke</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43753</link>
		<dc:creator>John Yorke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43753</guid>
		<description>It should always be remembered that the issues here do not commend themselves to reasoned argument.

If only Israelis do this then Arabs will do that, if this side shows flexibility in one area, then the other will respond in kind. No, this is something that will not happen; it never does. There are simply too many pressures being brought to bear, too many balls in the air at any one given time. We have the religious ball, the military, the political, the economic, the tribal, security aspects, a whole catalogue of past crimes and injustice, personal and public memories of death and destruction, a veritable cocktail of everyday incidents that constantly feed the fires of resentment and fear. 

On reflection, it&#039;s somewhat amazing that the situation is no worse than it already is. That&#039;s not to say that it&#039;s anywhere near acceptable or normal because that is most certainly what it is not. 

This problem has been in existence for at least sixty four years and, in all that time, not one day has passed without the situation becoming more entrenched and unresponsive to whatever human intervention has tried to do. Today, it looks set to enter upon an even deeper and darker phase. 

And our reaction to this has been what? It&#039;s precisely the same as it&#039;s always been. We blame this group or that, we remonstrate with politicians right, left and centre to reach some sort of settlement, we argue for any reasonable outcome, all the time knowing that the chances of it actually happening are virtually zero. In short, we accomplish nothing except to allow more lives to be lost, more treasure to be wasted and more bitterness and hatred to spill over into yet more years of violence. 

After so much experience, mostly bad, in this entire matter, shouldn&#039;t we have delivered something that&#039;s a whole lot better by now? It seems we&#039;ve done nothing but dither and dodge about on the sidelines as this dreadful business sinks slowly under the combined weight of its own historical and cultural baggage. 

Let us at least be able to say that we did something rather than nothing. If conventional tactics will not move matters forward, then unconventional ones may have to be considered. What can we lose? We tried everything else and, every time, we&#039;ve come up empty-handed. 

And that is not how it should be.

Http://yorketowers.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should always be remembered that the issues here do not commend themselves to reasoned argument.</p>
<p>If only Israelis do this then Arabs will do that, if this side shows flexibility in one area, then the other will respond in kind. No, this is something that will not happen; it never does. There are simply too many pressures being brought to bear, too many balls in the air at any one given time. We have the religious ball, the military, the political, the economic, the tribal, security aspects, a whole catalogue of past crimes and injustice, personal and public memories of death and destruction, a veritable cocktail of everyday incidents that constantly feed the fires of resentment and fear. </p>
<p>On reflection, it&#8217;s somewhat amazing that the situation is no worse than it already is. That&#8217;s not to say that it&#8217;s anywhere near acceptable or normal because that is most certainly what it is not. </p>
<p>This problem has been in existence for at least sixty four years and, in all that time, not one day has passed without the situation becoming more entrenched and unresponsive to whatever human intervention has tried to do. Today, it looks set to enter upon an even deeper and darker phase. </p>
<p>And our reaction to this has been what? It&#8217;s precisely the same as it&#8217;s always been. We blame this group or that, we remonstrate with politicians right, left and centre to reach some sort of settlement, we argue for any reasonable outcome, all the time knowing that the chances of it actually happening are virtually zero. In short, we accomplish nothing except to allow more lives to be lost, more treasure to be wasted and more bitterness and hatred to spill over into yet more years of violence. </p>
<p>After so much experience, mostly bad, in this entire matter, shouldn&#8217;t we have delivered something that&#8217;s a whole lot better by now? It seems we&#8217;ve done nothing but dither and dodge about on the sidelines as this dreadful business sinks slowly under the combined weight of its own historical and cultural baggage. </p>
<p>Let us at least be able to say that we did something rather than nothing. If conventional tactics will not move matters forward, then unconventional ones may have to be considered. What can we lose? We tried everything else and, every time, we&#8217;ve come up empty-handed. </p>
<p>And that is not how it should be.</p>
<p>Http://yorketowers.blogspot.com</p>
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		<title>By: Arib</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43752</link>
		<dc:creator>Arib</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 11:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43752</guid>
		<description>@Niz, where are the 7 million Palestinians you say are locked up in Israel&#039;s basement? I do quite a bit of travelling around and I do see refugee camps like Balata but around them is 1000&#039;s of acres of Palestinian controlled land, empty, just waiting to be built upon (if they really wanted too), lots and lots of Palestinian Police men, all armed by the way, expensive Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac&#039;s and more all with Palestinian plates. Palestinian houses bigger than those in Herziliya P and a good match for any house in Hollywood. Amazing how people here focus on the small village and not the bigger picture. Probably because if they did it would defeat most of the Palestinians&#039; arguments they they are &quot;locked up&quot;!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Niz, where are the 7 million Palestinians you say are locked up in Israel&#8217;s basement? I do quite a bit of travelling around and I do see refugee camps like Balata but around them is 1000&#8242;s of acres of Palestinian controlled land, empty, just waiting to be built upon (if they really wanted too), lots and lots of Palestinian Police men, all armed by the way, expensive Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac&#8217;s and more all with Palestinian plates. Palestinian houses bigger than those in Herziliya P and a good match for any house in Hollywood. Amazing how people here focus on the small village and not the bigger picture. Probably because if they did it would defeat most of the Palestinians&#8217; arguments they they are &#8220;locked up&#8221;!!</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43718</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2012 00:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43718</guid>
		<description>&quot;Both are actively defending and actively aggressing.&quot;

Its interesting Aristedes, that you would summarize that statement as &quot;you can’t put the onus exclusively on Hezbollah for its defensive preparations, not when you recall the ruins of Lebanon’s cities.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Both are actively defending and actively aggressing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Its interesting Aristedes, that you would summarize that statement as &#8220;you can’t put the onus exclusively on Hezbollah for its defensive preparations, not when you recall the ruins of Lebanon’s cities.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Niz</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43707</link>
		<dc:creator>Niz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 23:26:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43707</guid>
		<description>Israel&#039;s search for security is justifiable- like any state or people it tries to maximize its security. However, my maximizing its security and being able to win over all of her enemies together, produces security anxiety to all of its neighbors. This creates a security dilemma. Israel&#039;s approach to security reminds me of Europe in the 19th century. The idea that Israel needs to &#039;contain&#039; Islam or the Arabs is ridiculous. If anything it shows how paranoid the Israelis are. If anything it is the Arabs who have been trying to contain Israel for the past 60 years. 
On the long run and to be blunt. You are living in a Muslim neighborhood, and your security cannot be achieved without some form of understanding and cooperation or interdependence. The idea of Spartan Israel will bring you down, because you become too dangerous to be left alone!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Israel&#8217;s search for security is justifiable- like any state or people it tries to maximize its security. However, my maximizing its security and being able to win over all of her enemies together, produces security anxiety to all of its neighbors. This creates a security dilemma. Israel&#8217;s approach to security reminds me of Europe in the 19th century. The idea that Israel needs to &#8216;contain&#8217; Islam or the Arabs is ridiculous. If anything it shows how paranoid the Israelis are. If anything it is the Arabs who have been trying to contain Israel for the past 60 years.<br />
On the long run and to be blunt. You are living in a Muslim neighborhood, and your security cannot be achieved without some form of understanding and cooperation or interdependence. The idea of Spartan Israel will bring you down, because you become too dangerous to be left alone!</p>
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		<title>By: Piotr Berman</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43701</link>
		<dc:creator>Piotr Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:18:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43701</guid>
		<description>Passerby: &quot;The minute you attack civilians intentionally, you cross every red line.&quot;

Wiki: The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence.

Since Gadi Eizenkot is not institutionalized, neither in penal setting nor in an insane asylum, Israel is a state where depravity is an official doctrine.  Converting Arab habitation to &quot;parking lots&quot; seems to be a national pasttime.  Sometimes there are some excuses, &quot;they had command centers there&quot;.  Sometime, like with villages in Negev and Area C, just for kicks.  

If Israel felt threatened by Iran, it would not organize monthly discussion how to attack Iran. What is the true reason?  There were discussions why certain factions in USA (not unrelated to factions in Israel) were promoting attack on Iraq.  Any rational reason can be found illogical (including helping Israel).  One remains: 

&quot;War is to man what maternity is to a woman. From a philosophical and doctrinal viewpoint, I do not believe in perpetual peace.”

“War alone brings up to their highest tension all human energies and imposes the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have the courage to make it.”

&quot;The function of a citizen and a soldier are inseparable.&quot;

&quot;It is humiliating to remain with our hands folded while others write history. It matters little who wins. To make a people great it is necessary to send them to battle even if you have to kick them in the pants. That is what I shall do.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Passerby: &#8220;The minute you attack civilians intentionally, you cross every red line.&#8221;</p>
<p>Wiki: The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence.</p>
<p>Since Gadi Eizenkot is not institutionalized, neither in penal setting nor in an insane asylum, Israel is a state where depravity is an official doctrine.  Converting Arab habitation to &#8220;parking lots&#8221; seems to be a national pasttime.  Sometimes there are some excuses, &#8220;they had command centers there&#8221;.  Sometime, like with villages in Negev and Area C, just for kicks.  </p>
<p>If Israel felt threatened by Iran, it would not organize monthly discussion how to attack Iran. What is the true reason?  There were discussions why certain factions in USA (not unrelated to factions in Israel) were promoting attack on Iraq.  Any rational reason can be found illogical (including helping Israel).  One remains: </p>
<p>&#8220;War is to man what maternity is to a woman. From a philosophical and doctrinal viewpoint, I do not believe in perpetual peace.”</p>
<p>“War alone brings up to their highest tension all human energies and imposes the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have the courage to make it.”</p>
<p>&#8220;The function of a citizen and a soldier are inseparable.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;It is humiliating to remain with our hands folded while others write history. It matters little who wins. To make a people great it is necessary to send them to battle even if you have to kick them in the pants. That is what I shall do.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: aristeides</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43673</link>
		<dc:creator>aristeides</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:29:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43673</guid>
		<description>While I agree that the cycle of violence does not have a definitive starting point, you can&#039;t put the onus exclusively on Hezbollah for its defensive preparations, not when you recall the ruins of Lebanon&#039;s cities.

.
Lebanon not only has the right, but the absolutely demonstrated need to defend itself against its aggressive neighbor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree that the cycle of violence does not have a definitive starting point, you can&#8217;t put the onus exclusively on Hezbollah for its defensive preparations, not when you recall the ruins of Lebanon&#8217;s cities.</p>
<p>.<br />
Lebanon not only has the right, but the absolutely demonstrated need to defend itself against its aggressive neighbor.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/in-new-delhi-tbilisi-what-goes-around-comes-around/35365/comment-page-1/#comment-43668</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35365#comment-43668</guid>
		<description>Aristeides,
Both Israel and Hezbollah think of themselves as undertaking defense.

20,000 or 40,000 or whatever number of Hezbollah missiles aimed at civilian centers is not exactly a defensive capacity.

The cycle of violence between Hezbollah and precursors and Israel and triangulated factions, does not have a definitive starting point.

Both are actively defending and actively aggressing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aristeides,<br />
Both Israel and Hezbollah think of themselves as undertaking defense.</p>
<p>20,000 or 40,000 or whatever number of Hezbollah missiles aimed at civilian centers is not exactly a defensive capacity.</p>
<p>The cycle of violence between Hezbollah and precursors and Israel and triangulated factions, does not have a definitive starting point.</p>
<p>Both are actively defending and actively aggressing.</p>
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