Comments on: IMAGE: Segregated street for Palestinians, Jews in Hebron http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Sun, 19 May 2013 07:00:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: John http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-46467 John Sat, 03 Mar 2012 22:00:16 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-46467 I think you should make some allowances for the young Israeli Army soldiers, many of whom are distressed at the role they are forced to fulfil. The fact that numbers of them join organisations like Breaking The Silence after completing their period of national service shows that they are affected by the work they are made to carry out. In some cases - regrettably - some of these young people end up committing suicide. I think you should make some allowances for the young Israeli Army soldiers, many of whom are distressed at the role they are forced to fulfil. The fact that numbers of them join organisations like Breaking The Silence after completing their period of national service shows that they are affected by the work they are made to carry out. In some cases – regrettably – some of these young people end up committing suicide.

]]> By: aristeides http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44565 aristeides Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:04:00 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44565 Jazzy - First, there is no benefit to me in this situation. . Second, you confirm my point. Because the occupation is conducted by Jews, Israeli apologists will always use the antisemitism card to defend and perpetuate it. If the news somehow managed to report events without identifying the ethnicity of the participants, too many people wouldn't know what to think. . There is absolutely nothing in common between some "myth of the supernaturally evil Jew" and the very unsupernatural thugs of the IDF, but you feel free to drag in this smear. Jazzy – First, there is no benefit to me in this situation.

.
Second, you confirm my point. Because the occupation is conducted by Jews, Israeli apologists will always use the antisemitism card to defend and perpetuate it. If the news somehow managed to report events without identifying the ethnicity of the participants, too many people wouldn’t know what to think.

.
There is absolutely nothing in common between some “myth of the supernaturally evil Jew” and the very unsupernatural thugs of the IDF, but you feel free to drag in this smear.

]]> By: Jazzy http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44453 Jazzy Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:42:24 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44453 Aristeides: its probably to your benefit that the occupation is conducted by Jews because if it weren't, most people would care a lot less about it and you'd be even more alone Aristeides: its probably to your benefit that the occupation is conducted by Jews because if it weren’t, most people would care a lot less about it and you’d be even more alone

]]> By: Piotr Berman http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44320 Piotr Berman Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:45:13 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44320 "That their abuse is largely incidental makes their behavior less malicious. Malice is a state of mind, not an observable action." A sadistic institutional behavior does not require participants to be sadistic. People readily inflict pain and suffering if they are so commanded and explained a "higher goal", and perhaps more sadly, people readily plan inflicting pain and suffering when they perceive a "higher goal". Check "Milgram experiment" and "Dahiya doctrine". Within an organization, you may be uncomfortable with its conduct, or fully accepting. Clearly, the second kind of individual would tend to advance, and the first, to drop out. And if you accept the goals and methods, you may enjoy your work. In judging behavior of various institutional actors it is pointless to discuss if the members of the institution acted on personal malice. Government of Sudan had real problems in controlling chaotic insurgency in Darfur and arrived at cost-effective ways of handling the situation. "Some eggs were broken", but one has to admit that Sudan had neither funds, nor technologies, nor a disciplined institutional framework to implement more a "pretty" set of policies. From what I have seen, outsiders criticizing Sudan on that matter did not try to analyze the reasons for the atrocities (other than conjecturing ethnic and cultural bias), but merely the effects. Which lead to a variety of sanctions and indictments. “That their abuse is largely incidental makes their behavior less malicious. Malice is a state of mind, not an observable action.”

A sadistic institutional behavior does not require participants to be sadistic. People readily inflict pain and suffering if they are so commanded and explained a “higher goal”, and perhaps more sadly, people readily plan inflicting pain and suffering when they perceive a “higher goal”. Check “Milgram experiment” and “Dahiya doctrine”.

Within an organization, you may be uncomfortable with its conduct, or fully accepting. Clearly, the second kind of individual would tend to advance, and the first, to drop out. And if you accept the goals and methods, you may enjoy your work.

In judging behavior of various institutional actors it is pointless to discuss if the members of the institution acted on personal malice. Government of Sudan had real problems in controlling chaotic insurgency in Darfur and arrived at cost-effective ways of handling the situation. “Some eggs were broken”, but one has to admit that Sudan had neither funds, nor technologies, nor a disciplined institutional framework to implement more a “pretty” set of policies.

From what I have seen, outsiders criticizing Sudan on that matter did not try to analyze the reasons for the atrocities (other than conjecturing ethnic and cultural bias), but merely the effects. Which lead to a variety of sanctions and indictments.

]]> By: aristeides http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44193 aristeides Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:42:34 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44193 It'd be simpler to criticize the Israeli occupation if it weren't conducted by Jews. Then people could point out cases of egregious sadistic brutality, and no one could come along to excuse it with lines like "the supernaturally evil Jew trope." How convenient for the apologists. It’d be simpler to criticize the Israeli occupation if it weren’t conducted by Jews. Then people could point out cases of egregious sadistic brutality, and no one could come along to excuse it with lines like “the supernaturally evil Jew trope.” How convenient for the apologists.

]]> By: Jazzy http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44189 Jazzy Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:02:40 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44189 Cortez: I've already explained the IDF behaves as it does, and now you're just asking me again. You're doing the thing where you're speaking for the camera, to the cult, not to me. REALITY CHECK: there is absolutely nobody reading what you wrote who isn't educated about this issue, there is nobody for you to educate - if you want to have a discussion that respond to what I say, don't just bring up different points and talk past me. Cortez: I’ve already explained the IDF behaves as it does, and now you’re just asking me again. You’re doing the thing where you’re speaking for the camera, to the cult, not to me. REALITY CHECK: there is absolutely nobody reading what you wrote who isn’t educated about this issue, there is nobody for you to educate – if you want to have a discussion that respond to what I say, don’t just bring up different points and talk past me.

]]> By: Cortez http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44186 Cortez Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:40:06 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44186 Jazzy: "I think your suggestion that the IDF demolishes houses for its own sake, or just to watch others suffer, is disingenuous. Their tactics are mostly asserting control – is cruelty involved? Yes. Is bulling involved? Yes. But Israel doesn’t spend time and money demolishing houses out of pure sadism. All of this devilish cruelty talk has something of the supernaturally evil Jew trope in it, and it doesn’t reflect reality. Its a slow boiling ethnic war – that’s the way to look at it, not as the devious schemes of the wicked witch of Tel Aviv." . What else could it be? Can you explain why the IDF continues to make people homeless or why they can't treat people fairly? Or why its necessary to confiscate legitimately bought water tanks and prevent access natural water for families and children. I can understand maybe one or the other but both? Or why an ambulance can't enter H2 to serve a Palestinian or Aid Worker? I could understand if the IDF only allowed their ambulance to serve everyone...but to prevent access to another population? A bit too much. In addition, under the Hague Regulations and Geneva Convention, Israel has a duty to administer the territories including Hebron for the safety and benefit of the occupied population. The IDF's actions don't meet this standard in any capacity...what else could explain gross disregard for humanitarian law(meant to protect Palestinians, Jews, Arabs, Christians, Americans whenever they are occupied by a hostile force so they can be respected as humans). . Governments have so many creative ways to exercise control over populations they don't like or foreign populations or even highly defiant populations without resorting to making people homeless or taking away essential resources. . Devilish cruelty talk? Evil Jew trope? Are you serious? There are Jews in Russian Oblasts, Jews in Iran, Jews in South Africa...and elsewhere who're living their lives fully, greatly and with pride about their religion, national and community and with moral concern about the plight of others who are not defined by the the IDF's action. Jewish culture, history and its future is greater, richer and deeper than the IDF, and by default, Israel's absurd conduct. Jazzy: “I think your suggestion that the IDF demolishes houses for its own sake, or just to watch others suffer, is disingenuous. Their tactics are mostly asserting control – is cruelty involved? Yes. Is bulling involved? Yes. But Israel doesn’t spend time and money demolishing houses out of pure sadism. All of this devilish cruelty talk has something of the supernaturally evil Jew trope in it, and it doesn’t reflect reality. Its a slow boiling ethnic war – that’s the way to look at it, not as the devious schemes of the wicked witch of Tel Aviv.”
.
What else could it be? Can you explain why the IDF continues to make people homeless or why they can’t treat people fairly? Or why its necessary to confiscate legitimately bought water tanks and prevent access natural water for families and children. I can understand maybe one or the other but both? Or why an ambulance can’t enter H2 to serve a Palestinian or Aid Worker? I could understand if the IDF only allowed their ambulance to serve everyone…but to prevent access to another population? A bit too much. In addition, under the Hague Regulations and Geneva Convention, Israel has a duty to administer the territories including Hebron for the safety and benefit of the occupied population. The IDF’s actions don’t meet this standard in any capacity…what else could explain gross disregard for humanitarian law(meant to protect Palestinians, Jews, Arabs, Christians, Americans whenever they are occupied by a hostile force so they can be respected as humans).
.
Governments have so many creative ways to exercise control over populations they don’t like or foreign populations or even highly defiant populations without resorting to making people homeless or taking away essential resources.
.
Devilish cruelty talk? Evil Jew trope? Are you serious? There are Jews in Russian Oblasts, Jews in Iran, Jews in South Africa…and elsewhere who’re living their lives fully, greatly and with pride about their religion, national and community and with moral concern about the plight of others who are not defined by the the IDF’s action. Jewish culture, history and its future is greater, richer and deeper than the IDF, and by default, Israel’s absurd conduct.

]]> By: aristeides http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44176 aristeides Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:27:37 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44176 Jazzy - I imagine their victims are not concerned with such niceties and nuances. Jazzy – I imagine their victims are not concerned with such niceties and nuances.

]]> By: Jazzy http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44168 Jazzy Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:00:56 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44168 Cortez: I think your suggestion that the IDF demolishes houses for its own sake, or just to watch others suffer, is disingenuous. Their tactics are mostly asserting control - is cruelty involved? Yes. Is bulling involved? Yes. But Israel doesn't spend time and money demolishing houses out of pure sadism. All of this devilish cruelty talk has something of the supernaturally evil Jew trope in it, and it doesn't reflect reality. Its a slow boiling ethnic war - that's the way to look at it, not as the devious schemes of the wicked witch of Tel Aviv. Cortez: I think your suggestion that the IDF demolishes houses for its own sake, or just to watch others suffer, is disingenuous. Their tactics are mostly asserting control – is cruelty involved? Yes. Is bulling involved? Yes. But Israel doesn’t spend time and money demolishing houses out of pure sadism. All of this devilish cruelty talk has something of the supernaturally evil Jew trope in it, and it doesn’t reflect reality. Its a slow boiling ethnic war – that’s the way to look at it, not as the devious schemes of the wicked witch of Tel Aviv.

]]> By: Jazzy http://972mag.com/image-segregated-street-for-palestinians-jews-in-hebron/35457/comment-page-1/#comment-44166 Jazzy Fri, 17 Feb 2012 18:53:44 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=35457#comment-44166 Aristeides: that the underlying motive for IDF behavior is asserting control, or taking land, makes their behavior less malicious than if they showed up purely to torment people. That their abuse is largely incidental makes their behavior less malicious. Malice is a state of mind, not an observable action. Are you going to debate the meaning of 'malice' now? Aristeides: that the underlying motive for IDF behavior is asserting control, or taking land, makes their behavior less malicious than if they showed up purely to torment people. That their abuse is largely incidental makes their behavior less malicious. Malice is a state of mind, not an observable action. Are you going to debate the meaning of ‘malice’ now?

]]>