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	<title>Comments on: Did rightist NGO leader admit to being inspired by fascist thinkers?</title>
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	<link>http://972mag.com/im-tirzu-leader-admits-inspired-by-fascist-thinkers/35322/</link>
	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
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		<title>By: Piotr Berman</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/im-tirzu-leader-admits-inspired-by-fascist-thinkers/35322/comment-page-1/#comment-43703</link>
		<dc:creator>Piotr Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 22:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35322#comment-43703</guid>
		<description>&quot;All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.&quot;

&quot;It is the State which educates its citizens in civic virtue, gives them a consciousness of their mission and welds them into unity.&quot;

I think that this is the real inspiration of Im Tirzu.  Forget Romantic poets.  Zionism is a project to weave all Jews into a single tapestry of the Jewish State, an organic and harmonious structure, with threads of different hues but none sticking out in wrong directions.

Note that educators play a central role here, their role is not to propagate doubt, under the guise of &quot;critical thinking&quot; or, even worse, outright criticism of the state, but to lead the citizens on the path of civic virtue and weld them to unity.

Does the Department of Political Science at BGU lead the students on the path of civic virtue?  Does it weld them to unity?  These people sow doubt instead of pride, have temerity of accusing the State of crimes, undermine solidarity by discussing the fate of the enemies as if they were human beings.  And yet, they are inside the State, traitorous 5th column.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;It is the State which educates its citizens in civic virtue, gives them a consciousness of their mission and welds them into unity.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think that this is the real inspiration of Im Tirzu.  Forget Romantic poets.  Zionism is a project to weave all Jews into a single tapestry of the Jewish State, an organic and harmonious structure, with threads of different hues but none sticking out in wrong directions.</p>
<p>Note that educators play a central role here, their role is not to propagate doubt, under the guise of &#8220;critical thinking&#8221; or, even worse, outright criticism of the state, but to lead the citizens on the path of civic virtue and weld them to unity.</p>
<p>Does the Department of Political Science at BGU lead the students on the path of civic virtue?  Does it weld them to unity?  These people sow doubt instead of pride, have temerity of accusing the State of crimes, undermine solidarity by discussing the fate of the enemies as if they were human beings.  And yet, they are inside the State, traitorous 5th column.</p>
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		<title>By: LifePeace</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/im-tirzu-leader-admits-inspired-by-fascist-thinkers/35322/comment-page-1/#comment-43622</link>
		<dc:creator>LifePeace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35322#comment-43622</guid>
		<description>I am a big fan of 972, and usually of Yossi Gurwitz&#039;s writing, and I deplore Im Tirtzu, but.... I think Yossi Gurwitz may regret sacrificing journalistic principles for the defense of his friends in this case. To claim that Shoval has admitted to being inspired by fascist leaders is a ridiculous twisting of the truth - even when you are the one presenting the facts. As Jazzy pointed out - Gurvitz gave a complete non-sequitur in his argument. From Shoval&#039;s admission that he &quot;dealt with&quot; George Sorel, Gurvitz has jumped to &quot;This is, to say the least, a rather strange inspiration...&quot; etc. Except he never admitted it was an inspiration. You (Gurvitz) may have been better off claiming that Herder and Fichte were inspirations based on Persico&#039;s analysis - but that would not be clear-cut enough - so you have twisted the truth you did have. I hope that Im Tirtzu loses the case and is crushed and we never hear from them again as a political organisation, but this article only adds to their claims - by using shoddy journalism to make them look bad, they can rightly claim that they are being defamed. Truth be told I think it is ridiculous to sue someone for calling you a fascist (especially when you are one, in my opinion), but if the legal system says that&#039;s not ok and has allowed the case to come this far - it seems like they have a case. Given the background - with the version of a cease and desist notice - it seems like it is the founders of the facebook group who are the ones who wanted the court-case. Hopefully it will end in their favour, but they can&#039;t complain if it doesn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a big fan of 972, and usually of Yossi Gurwitz&#8217;s writing, and I deplore Im Tirtzu, but&#8230;. I think Yossi Gurwitz may regret sacrificing journalistic principles for the defense of his friends in this case. To claim that Shoval has admitted to being inspired by fascist leaders is a ridiculous twisting of the truth &#8211; even when you are the one presenting the facts. As Jazzy pointed out &#8211; Gurvitz gave a complete non-sequitur in his argument. From Shoval&#8217;s admission that he &#8220;dealt with&#8221; George Sorel, Gurvitz has jumped to &#8220;This is, to say the least, a rather strange inspiration&#8230;&#8221; etc. Except he never admitted it was an inspiration. You (Gurvitz) may have been better off claiming that Herder and Fichte were inspirations based on Persico&#8217;s analysis &#8211; but that would not be clear-cut enough &#8211; so you have twisted the truth you did have. I hope that Im Tirtzu loses the case and is crushed and we never hear from them again as a political organisation, but this article only adds to their claims &#8211; by using shoddy journalism to make them look bad, they can rightly claim that they are being defamed. Truth be told I think it is ridiculous to sue someone for calling you a fascist (especially when you are one, in my opinion), but if the legal system says that&#8217;s not ok and has allowed the case to come this far &#8211; it seems like they have a case. Given the background &#8211; with the version of a cease and desist notice &#8211; it seems like it is the founders of the facebook group who are the ones who wanted the court-case. Hopefully it will end in their favour, but they can&#8217;t complain if it doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Piotr Berman</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/im-tirzu-leader-admits-inspired-by-fascist-thinkers/35322/comment-page-1/#comment-43568</link>
		<dc:creator>Piotr Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 21:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35322#comment-43568</guid>
		<description>This is totally weird.

The notions like &quot;radical leftist&quot; and &quot;fascists&quot; are clearly not particularly precise, there is a continuum of positions to which they can be applied.  Moreover, not all people would regard them as negative.

Reasonable people disagree if Jobbik is a fascist party.

I think that Plato was a fascist, more precisely, a state run according to his recommendations would be fascist.  Im Tirtzu recommendations are no better. I dread Plato&#039;s estate digging out this comment and suing me.  Or some neo-cons, because they love Plato, and typically hate Kant.  Following Kant philosophy is responsible, according to them, for a number of major calamities.  Should Kantists sue?  

One person may think that Ronen Shoval looks like an intelligent young man, another, that he looks like &quot;a brainless hunk of meat&quot;, &quot;hunk of meat&quot; being a male equivalent of &quot;bimbo&quot;.  It would be a strange country where court could decide which opinion is correct and which is libelous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is totally weird.</p>
<p>The notions like &#8220;radical leftist&#8221; and &#8220;fascists&#8221; are clearly not particularly precise, there is a continuum of positions to which they can be applied.  Moreover, not all people would regard them as negative.</p>
<p>Reasonable people disagree if Jobbik is a fascist party.</p>
<p>I think that Plato was a fascist, more precisely, a state run according to his recommendations would be fascist.  Im Tirtzu recommendations are no better. I dread Plato&#8217;s estate digging out this comment and suing me.  Or some neo-cons, because they love Plato, and typically hate Kant.  Following Kant philosophy is responsible, according to them, for a number of major calamities.  Should Kantists sue?  </p>
<p>One person may think that Ronen Shoval looks like an intelligent young man, another, that he looks like &#8220;a brainless hunk of meat&#8221;, &#8220;hunk of meat&#8221; being a male equivalent of &#8220;bimbo&#8221;.  It would be a strange country where court could decide which opinion is correct and which is libelous.</p>
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		<title>By: Jazzy</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/im-tirzu-leader-admits-inspired-by-fascist-thinkers/35322/comment-page-1/#comment-43566</link>
		<dc:creator>Jazzy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 21:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35322#comment-43566</guid>
		<description>If he knows exactly which poisoned wells he is using with admiration, wouldn&#039;t he have the good sense not to name them? Attempts to tease outright fascism out of the phrase &#039;dealt with&#039; seem a bit absurd when many Palestinians openly admit admiration for Adolf Hitler. Strategic lawsuits are dirty - fair enough. But everything else here (&#039;hypocrisy&#039; etc.) seems a little desperate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If he knows exactly which poisoned wells he is using with admiration, wouldn&#8217;t he have the good sense not to name them? Attempts to tease outright fascism out of the phrase &#8216;dealt with&#8217; seem a bit absurd when many Palestinians openly admit admiration for Adolf Hitler. Strategic lawsuits are dirty &#8211; fair enough. But everything else here (&#8216;hypocrisy&#8217; etc.) seems a little desperate.</p>
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		<title>By: Passerby</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/im-tirzu-leader-admits-inspired-by-fascist-thinkers/35322/comment-page-1/#comment-43534</link>
		<dc:creator>Passerby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 19:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=35322#comment-43534</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link to the Sternhall analysis. After reading it and reading your link to the 14 points of Fascism, I found myself unconvinced on either count. First and foremost, it seems to me that Sternhall himself is unconvinced. The best he can say is that Im Tirzu is showing some signs of the initial stages of Fascism. So is my son&#039;s kindergarten class. I mean, come on. It either is or isn&#039;t Fascist. It&#039;s like those stupid debates with Palestianian advocates who have no shame in saying that Israel is not a Nazi state yet but it resembles 1933 Germany. I&#039;ve been hearing that for over a decade. 
-----------
If Stenhall&#039;s analysis, including his assertion that Im Tirzu is a showing signs of becoming Fascist, on the basis of his criteria, I have to ask whether BDS is a Fascist movement because it seeks to eliminate joint research with Israeli universities? Is BDS a Fascist movement because it seeks to stifle the voices of opposition? Is BDS a Fascist movement because it identifies enemies and treats them as such as the PennBDS conference just did by disallowing the town&#039;s main Jewish paper from attending? Are elements of pro-Palestinian advocacy Fascist because they seek to undermine Jewish historical links to Israel while playing up Palestinian historic links (often ones that are seriously in dispute) to this land? 
----------

Im Tirzu is a movement that has its positives and negatives. There is no question they want to play hardball and there is no question that they are an organization that openly attacks many groups and individuals on the Israeli Left. That doesn&#039;t make them Fascists. 
------------
Calling for someone to be fired because he takes a state salary from the very state he encourages other countries to boycott is not Fascism, even though this is a key claim in Sternhall&#039;s commentary. 
------
You and he may disagree with the premise, but it&#039;s not illogical. That bold, liberal academic is not told not to encourage a boycott, he is told not to do it while on the payroll of the country or organization he wants boycotted. It seems to me that Im Tirzu is saying that he can go ahead and open his own university, get funders to pay his salary and then encourage them to boycott him and his university. If he isn&#039;t willing to do that, he shouldn&#039;t be doing it with state resources and a state salary.
-------
There is a legitimate and legitimately angry debate going on in Israel about what is fair criticism of Israel and when that criticism becomes a tool that aids Israel&#039;s very real enemies. Perhaps it would be best for all if people focused on the debate and stopped calling each other names. Calling someone a Fascist, especially in Israel, is not a trifling insult.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link to the Sternhall analysis. After reading it and reading your link to the 14 points of Fascism, I found myself unconvinced on either count. First and foremost, it seems to me that Sternhall himself is unconvinced. The best he can say is that Im Tirzu is showing some signs of the initial stages of Fascism. So is my son&#8217;s kindergarten class. I mean, come on. It either is or isn&#8217;t Fascist. It&#8217;s like those stupid debates with Palestianian advocates who have no shame in saying that Israel is not a Nazi state yet but it resembles 1933 Germany. I&#8217;ve been hearing that for over a decade.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;<br />
If Stenhall&#8217;s analysis, including his assertion that Im Tirzu is a showing signs of becoming Fascist, on the basis of his criteria, I have to ask whether BDS is a Fascist movement because it seeks to eliminate joint research with Israeli universities? Is BDS a Fascist movement because it seeks to stifle the voices of opposition? Is BDS a Fascist movement because it identifies enemies and treats them as such as the PennBDS conference just did by disallowing the town&#8217;s main Jewish paper from attending? Are elements of pro-Palestinian advocacy Fascist because they seek to undermine Jewish historical links to Israel while playing up Palestinian historic links (often ones that are seriously in dispute) to this land?<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;-</p>
<p>Im Tirzu is a movement that has its positives and negatives. There is no question they want to play hardball and there is no question that they are an organization that openly attacks many groups and individuals on the Israeli Left. That doesn&#8217;t make them Fascists.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;<br />
Calling for someone to be fired because he takes a state salary from the very state he encourages other countries to boycott is not Fascism, even though this is a key claim in Sternhall&#8217;s commentary.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;<br />
You and he may disagree with the premise, but it&#8217;s not illogical. That bold, liberal academic is not told not to encourage a boycott, he is told not to do it while on the payroll of the country or organization he wants boycotted. It seems to me that Im Tirzu is saying that he can go ahead and open his own university, get funders to pay his salary and then encourage them to boycott him and his university. If he isn&#8217;t willing to do that, he shouldn&#8217;t be doing it with state resources and a state salary.<br />
&#8212;&#8212;-<br />
There is a legitimate and legitimately angry debate going on in Israel about what is fair criticism of Israel and when that criticism becomes a tool that aids Israel&#8217;s very real enemies. Perhaps it would be best for all if people focused on the debate and stopped calling each other names. Calling someone a Fascist, especially in Israel, is not a trifling insult.</p>
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