Comments on: How Jews should relate to Palestine http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Thu, 03 Sep 2015 06:34:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.8 By: Elijah http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-224411 Fri, 18 Apr 2014 15:41:58 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-224411 Hang on! Is he really wrong? Nation-states may be modern concepts but most previous systems of governance under emperors, monarchs or theocrats were not tolerant or inclusive which is what ‘modern’ societies are supposed to want. Most people want citizenship not subjects and most traditional societies put their tribe or religion first. With modernisation it became more effective to govern and that’s why standardisation (and oppression of those cultural groups that did not conform) occurred at a more intense rate than in pre-modern ones. Palestine is as much a construct as any other nation including modern Israel (historically it referred only to the coastal areas) and owes its extension to Roman imperial policy in the wake of the Jewish revolts and Christianisation. Also you forget that allowing the Palestinians complete rights to Israel will effectively marginalised all non-Muslims as they primarily define themselves as part of the Arab-Muslim world and will inevitably exclude Non-Muslims and non-Arabs with their own attempts at standardisation and the pressures they will bear as a majority group.

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By: Oriol2 http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107656 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 16:07:12 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107656 Dear Magnescim,
I am sorry if I sounded arrogant, I didn’t mean to. I understand what you say, and I can only answer to you: yes, my point of view is that of an “ultra-soft zionist”, as you call it. I imagine every person has his/her own personal history. I also think that accepting the existence of Israel doesn’t mean only accepting “facts in the ground”, but accepting the existence of a nation that is new, but now undoubtedly exists in a territory which has been deeply transformed and shaped by that same nation.
One example: it is true that Tel Aviv was founded on purchased land, and, as a such, we cannot say it was constructed on stolen land. But, at the same time, it is obvious that it wasn’t “just” founded on purchased land, because its same foundation was part in a colonial project that entailed dispossession of natives, or, at least, forceful reduction of them to a minority in their own land. Of course. But, at the same time, now you have there a whole metropolitan area that didn’t exist one century ago, and has transformed the land in something completely different, and only since Jews are there. I know it is a delicate matter, but I am nonetheless convinced that that area, for example, has simply ceased to be “Arab Palestine” in the sense that Ramallah still is. I don’t say it is fair, I just say it is irreversible.
Believe me that I deeply regret and abhor all the things that Zionists have done against Arabs, but at the same time I cannot help but wishing that Jews have their own state, and that Israel keeps existing. I could also tell you that Arabs have been partially guilty for the horrible things that have happened, but I am not sure I should, because, no matter the wrongs that Arabs may have committed, it was the Jews who decided to go to Palestine in the first place, and who began the conflict.
You ask me for the right of return. Well, I am convinced that the literal return of Palestinians to the territory that now is occupied by Jews is simply impossible, except but destroying those same Jews, and I am not going to defend that. I know it will be very difficult for both sides, but I suppose that the only real solution will be for Israel to symbolically recognize the right of return, and then financially compensate the Palestinians for the inapplicability of that right of return. I am for the creation of an independent state of Palestine, and even for the integration between Israel and Palestine in the long term.

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By: Aaron Gross http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107589 Fri, 08 Feb 2013 05:51:30 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107589 One last comment here, ’cause apparently I still wasn’t clear. Let’s assume Jerry Haber is a perfect angel of love, descended from heaven to bring peace and comfort to our troubled region. The fact is that most others use national narratives very polemically, to legitimate their own political program and to delegitimate their enemy’s. If anyone, including the angelically pure Jerry Haber, ignores that crucial reality of polemics and war, then his recommendations, no matter how well intended, are probably dangerous in the real world.

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By: Michael W. http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107538 Thu, 07 Feb 2013 22:19:02 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107538 Rambam.

Boom! Argument destroyed.

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By: Mikesailor http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107536 Thu, 07 Feb 2013 22:00:52 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107536 One of the strangest things I’ve seen is the logical contortions espoused and adopted by Zionists to justify their theft of another people’s land. If you accept the Jewish narrative, many Jews went into exile after the Roman (Bar Kokhba) revolt. Actually it makes sense that many Jews connected to the revolt left the area rather than face the Romans. The priests and nobles led the way followed by many of the rabbinical class. Yet, many Jews remained and helped to rebuild a society with others who also were there. For there has never been any historical proof that the only inhabitants of the land were Jews, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. And the Jews who ran away did not return for almost two millennia. Not even a visit or acknowledgement of those they left behind. No pilgrimages etc although a Palestinian Talmud was written by rabbis who remained. What did this group of self-imposed exiles expect? That the people remaining on the land would not build, would not intermarry, would not create their own culture as Palestinians? That is the pathetic reasoning of the Zionists: that nothing mattered because some Jews, not even the majority, ran away and did not return to rebuild the country but left others ‘holding the bag’. Then after almost two thousand years the descendants of the original cowards return and steal the fruits of the indigenous peoples; Jewish Christian and Muslim natives’ labor. And they expect to be welcomed, legitimized, and not treated as the thieves they are? Not likely.

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By: aristeides http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107534 Thu, 07 Feb 2013 21:52:39 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107534 Of course he is.

People like Boxthorn are the reason that other employ pseudonyms.

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By: ruth http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107530 Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:58:47 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107530 who care what his name is? are you trying to threaten him? idiot.

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By: andrew r http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107526 Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:34:15 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107526 “So it’s not that Arabs are incapable of democracy, it’s that they might make choices you don’t agree with.”

Another good indication of this is that you don’t give the Palestinians any credit for trying to create a secular system; when you bring up the Muslim-Christian Associations, it’s only to complain about their stance on Jewish immigration.

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By: andrew r http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107523 Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:28:28 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107523 “I don’t see how Arab society could become democratic until they drop/alter Islam, which is not going to happen.”

So it’s not that Arabs are incapable of democracy, it’s that they might make choices you don’t agree with.

There are also pro-democratic and pro-secular tendencies in Egyptian society. Remember, the Muslim Brotherhood had very little role in organizing the actual uprising against Mubarak, but they were able to take power a year later. That’s because there’s a big divide between Egyptian society and the machinery of the state, which the Brotherhood was able to exploit.

‘wtf are you talking about?’

My point is, the fact that a group of neighboring states which share the same religion are dictatorships is not necessarily because of said religion and only an idiot with no real interest in studying the history of these states would make that assessment.

And it’s doubly ridiculous in the wake of the last few years. If Islam made the Arab states all dictatorships, what caused the mass protesting against the regimes?

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By: Shamir Isra http://972mag.com/how-jews-should-relate-to-palestine/65424/comment-page-1/#comment-107522 Thu, 07 Feb 2013 20:15:48 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=65424#comment-107522 Viva Palestina. @viva_palestina. OFFICIAL VIVA PALESTINA SITE. A Lifeline from Britain to Gaza. Will soon be a lifeline from the world to Gaza!. Get on board …

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