33 comments for ”Government quietly funds KKK-like organizations“

    
  1. “USA quietly funds KKK-like governments, in Jordan (where Jews are not allowed citizenship or property rights), Egypt (where women are raped on suspicion of Judaism), Pakistan (where holy war against non-Muslims is part of the public school system), Saudi Arabia (where an entire city of 1M+ is under non-Muslim apartheid)…”

    Once LHVH has lynched Arabs w/official complicity, this comparison might be appropriate. Until then, its actually an insult to generations of African-Americans who lived under an actual reign of terror w/out civil rights or any measure of equality under the law”…972 – you one stop shop for hyperbole, abuse, and exploitation of history

  2. 
  3. Yossi-
    I am sorry to see that you are still spreading this “miscegenation” nonsense, especially after I repeatedly pointed out that this is simply a falsehood. Judaism does not recognize “race” as a category. Anyone of any race can convert to Judaism.
    Judaism DOES oppose intermarriage. So does Islam which strongly opposes Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men. Most Christian sects oppose intermarriage out of Christianity. It is a natural thing. But you must stop spreading this falsehood about “miscegenation”.

  4. 
  5. It’s interesting that the US averts its gaze from all the clear evidence that Israel is a state supporter of terrorism. Kahanist organizations come over to the US to raise funds, and the Justice Dept beams benevolently on their activities. Apparently these laws are just meant for Muslims.

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  7. Lets get this straight. Kach is fundamentalist, racist and terrorist. It is not officially in our government, but our government funds it, protects it and actively encourages its activities. Yet Tzipi Hotovely’s party boss – who also happens to be our PM – won’t speak to the PA if fundamentalist, anti-semitic, terrorist Hamas is part of it?

    What have I misunderstood here?

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  9. So it’s a supposed slap in the face to compare the groups because they haven’t lynched anyone? Maybe that’s because they’re too busy cheering when mortars drop on the children of Palestine.

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  11. Yossi
    thanks for pointing out the inherent racism of zionism. Your testimony will be needed at the Hague

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  13. Here is an article from the New York Times showing how both Muslims and Christians strongly oppose intermarriage, and not only Jews have a problem with it. It is NOT, as Yossi keeps falsely claiming, a particularly Jewish problem with “miscegenation”.

    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2011/05/07/world/middleeast/AP-ML-Egypt-Sectarian-Clashes.html?ref=global-home

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  15. I would also like to add to what Ben Israel said that The Law of Return (one of the main expressions of Zionism) accepts anyone who has even one Jewish grandparent (certainly one who has a Jewish father and non-Jewish mother) as an Israeli citizen (no questions asked). In fact, there are neo-nazi sympathizers in Israel running around, who became Israeli citizens as a result of having a Jewish grandparent, or a Jewish father. Not only that, but the Law of Return also accepts converts to Judaism as citizens. Sure, there are debates as to which conversions are accepted, which makes perfect sense otherwise anyone could go through a quickie conversion just to immigrate to Israel and/or marry a Jew, but the fact remains that converts are FULLY accepted under the Law of Return, so Zionism is NOT about “race”. Lastly, I know I am repeating myself here, but why is it considered “racist” or “chauvinistic” for Jews to only want to marry Jews, yet perfectly natural for any other religion (including Christians and Muslims)? Also, I am wondering how a non-Muslim can become a citizen of Jordan, Egypt, or Saudia Arabia?

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  17. I can’t believe this, but I’m actually on the same page as Ben Israel for the first time. As disgusting as I find Kach, Kahane, and the whole lot — who are certainly quasi- if not literally fascists, it is a misreading of Judaism to suggest that prohibitions on intermarriage are viewed by the Jewish tradition as a function of race. That is not to say that there aren’t strains within both Jewish nationalist and religious camps that have adopted a distinctively racialist (if not racist) attitude, but they are FAR from the mainstream of either Zionism or religious Judaism. Judaism, as Ben Israel points out — at least normative Judaism — accepts converts of all racial and ethnic backgrounds. Zionism is trickier: as an ideology born out of 19th century European intellectual history, there is a taint of racialism to many expressions of it, but by no means all. To say that it is fundamentally racialist or racist would be the same as saying that French or American or British or German (or Palestinian!) etc. etc., nationalism is fundamentally racist. Now some would argue that this IS the case, but they are a rather extreme group, and far from the mainstream of even leftist discourse. For most nationalisms, as with Israeli/Jewish nationalism, there is a more amorphous dynamic of group exclusivity defined by such things as citizenship, geographic concentration, and national self-determination — that is, the main aims of Zionism from its inception (as with every other form of nationalism). These are not the same as racism.

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  19. RichardNYC – I’m not an American. I’m an Israeli. The actions of my government, the way it uses my taxes and, hell, until recently the way it used me as a soldier, are much more important to me than most anything the US government does or support. Jordan, Egypt etc have their own biased laws? Then they ought to fix them, certainly. But that’s not *my* struggle. For crying out loud, I don’t even read or speak the language.

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  21. Judaism, as Ben Israel points out — at least normative Judaism — accepts converts of all racial and ethnic backgrounds.

    That’s the propaganda, yes. That’s not actually true. Ultra-Orthodox and many Orthodox – in Israel, at least – do not accept converts as full Jews. They are required to marry among themselves, for instance. It’s particularly bad for female converts, as they are considered a priori to be prostitutes.

    Furthermore, the more kabbalistic cults, such as many hassidic groups, believe that gentiles are demons, and that converts are merely souls of Jews who have accidentally been trapped in a gentile body, and are “returning home”. This belief is becoming much more widespread, and in intrinsically racist.

    You’ll further note that the Nazis, for instance, mixed religion and “race”: So-called Aryans who converted to Judaism have spontaneously become Jews.

    To say that it is fundamentally racialist or racist would be the same as saying that French or American or British or German (or Palestinian!) etc. etc., nationalism is fundamentally racist.

    No, actually. The French concept of a nation, which is pretty much what we accept today, says that every person living in France who accepts “Frenchness” (speaks French, partakes in French culture, commits himself to French social norms, etc.) *is* French, no matter where he came from. Zionism, even in its basic texts (Herzl, etc.) considers non-Jews to be second-class citizens, who move aside to make place for the returning Jews, and thus are treated with respect and kindness – a colonialist fantasy. The fact is that mainstream Zionism has always rejected any attempt to recognize equality between Jews and non-Jews, whether it came from Brit Shalom the Cannanites.

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  23. @Yossi
    You’ve missed the point. I’m not suggesting that you should address Arab society’s racism, or ignore Israel’s. I’m suggesting that your comparing LHVH to the KKK is unfair. The KKK was an extremely violent organization, which is why you’ve heard of it. LHVH is not. That their ideologies are relatable on a very general level does not merit a direct comparison.

  24. 
  25. @RichardNYC,

    Hence “KKK-*like*”. Similar to. Not a replica. Furthermore, given the number of so-called “price tag” activities, which LHVH praises if not actually instigate – many of them including physical assaults upon non-Jews who had the temerity to speak to a member of the chosen people – your differentiation is much weaker than you understand. Yes, we do have somewhat better law enforcement than the Dixie states did. Our police still detained an Israeli-Palestinian for driving on Yom Kippur, despite the fact this is not an offense according to Israeli laws.

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  27. @Yossi
    This is a variation on the “so because (insert Arab country here) does it too that means its ok for Israel to do it?” fallacy that often used to obfuscate arguments about the veracity or motivations of anti-Israel discourse

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  29. “Yes, we do have somewhat better law enforcement than the Dixie states did.”

    The KKK murdered thousands of people. Even if I assumed that LHVH is directly responsible for all “price-tag” crimes, the comparison is still obscene. I’m starting to doubt you fully appreciate the history of the KKK…

  30. 
  31. @Yossi
    I think perhaps you’re only familiar with the modern version of the KKK. Please read more about the original organizations and the reigns of terror and mass murder they inflicted in their day. Nor will it do simply to restrict your comparison to the modern incarnation, since it’s terrifying associations depend on the relationship with the original

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  33. “The French concept of a nation, which is pretty much what we accept today, says that every person living in France who accepts “Frenchness” (speaks French, partakes in French culture, commits himself to French social norms, etc.) ”

    Except a large fraction of the French population (Le Pen part deux) do not see it that way in practice. Likewise, a large fraction of the Israeli public do ascribe to a colonial understanding of Zionism. The hasidim you mention, for instance. It won’t do to compare platonic forms in a conversation about living breathing countries.

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  35. *Correction: “subscribe”, not “ascribe”

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  37. Yossi’s statement:
    ——————————————–
    That’s the propaganda, yes. That’s not actually true. Ultra-Orthodox and many Orthodox – in Israel, at least – do not accept converts as full Jews. They are required to marry among themselves, for instance. It’s particularly bad for female converts, as they are considered a priori to be prostitutes.
    ———————————————

    This is an outright lie. Yossi, I find it comforting that you “progressives” have to lie to try to convince people. Your repeating these lies also makes me question your claims to have studied in yeshiva high school also, because otherwise you would know what you are saying is untrue.

    I PERSONALLY KNOW CONVERTS IN THE HAREDI WORLD.

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  39. I generally agree with Yossi most times, but his perspective on this is inherently Israeli, where the state religion is Orthodox, often haredi orthodox. The Israeli point of view on religion is “The religion I don’t believe in is orthodox Judaism,” while they don’t remember (or know?) that most religious Jews are Reform or Conservative. In fact, Israel is the only Jewish community to enforce an orthodox monopoly upon everyone.

    Secondly, most haredi Jews are not Zionist. So I find this conflation of the Jewish religion with the Jewish nationalism especially ill-infomred.

    Sadly, the most virulent strains of Zionist discourse dominating the Israeli electorate today are very prejudiced. Yes, that is also true. But that’s not true of all Zionists, it’s never been true of all streams of Zionism, and it’s certainly not true in the Diaspora.

    Which is not to say Israeli society — among Jews and Arabs both — is not racist. It totally is. But it’s false to say that Zionism is inherently racist, especially if we’re comparing nationalisms or religions to each other.

    I expect much better thinking from the excellent folks at 972. This I submit with all due respect because I love Yossi’s work.

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  41. Yossi
    You have a historical forefather, Pablo Christiani, who was born to a pious Jewish family like yourself, but then attacked Judaism for fun and profit. The parallels are quite astounding
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Christiani

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  43. This is an outright lie. Yossi, I find it comforting that you “progressives” have to lie to try to convince people. Your repeating these lies also makes me question your claims to have studied in yeshiva high school also, because otherwise you would know what you are saying is untrue.

    I PERSONALLY KNOW CONVERTS IN THE HAREDI WORLD.

    “Ben Israel”, if that is your real name, you really need to hone your reading skills. I never wrote there aren’t converts in the Haredi world. I wrote *they are treated as second class people* despite very clear injunctions against just this sort of behavior in the Halacha. The point about female converts is particularly infamous. The ultra-Orthodox Neturei Kartha split in the 1970s when a popular rabbi married a convert (forgot her name, the one who kidnapped Yossele Schumacher). Your denial of such facts is the lie.

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  45. @Borg, I am more of a Nicholas Donin fan.

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  47. Arguing about the semantics of the word “race” is a distraction. It is fantastically difficult for someone not of Jewish matrilineal descent to ‘become a Jew’ to the satisfaction of Israeli orthodox rabbinate. However, as a comment observes above, even Russian neo-nazis can claim israeli citizenship if they are of Jewish matrilineal descent, whether the rabbinate likes it or not. Draw your own conclusion.

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  49. In fact, now I think about it, I believe that anyone with any halachically Jewish grandparent can claim Israeli citizenship, though unless the grandparent is their mother’s mother, they themselves will not be halachically Jewish, and hence will still need a conversion to Judaism, which is sometimes neither plausible to the rabbinate nor desired by the immigrant, and it is precisely this hiatus of identity which leads some such immigrants to become ‘neo-nazis’, even though they were no such thing before.

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  51. Yossi – this is your quote:
    ———————————————-
    Ultra-Orthodox and many Orthodox – in Israel, at least – do not accept converts as full Jews. They are required to marry among themselves, for instance. It’s particularly bad for female converts, as they are considered a priori to be prostitutes.
    ———————————————–
    They are NOT “required” to marry among themselves, although many, maybe most Haredim do prefer to marry within their own circles. Just like “progressive” Jews. I know of a secular Jew whose child married a religious Jew and although the secular child did NOT adopt a full religious lifestyle (although he agreed to have only kosher food in the house) he was practically disowned by their parents. What do you mean “they don’t accept them as full Jews”? They don’t count them in a minyan?
    What, then? Some Jews have various prejudices so that gives you the right to extrapolate against all Jews? Why does it give you pleasure to do so? The “occupation” isn’t enough so you feel you have to bad mouth the entire state of Israel and maybe the entire Jewish people so that you can push your political agenda?

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  53. Ben Israel
    Yossi has noted that Nicholas Donin is more his type. That means Yossi is not just an anti-zionist but is anti-Jewish as well. Hey Yossi, did you burn your Talmud without contributing to global warming?

    Nicholas Donin (Nicolas Donin) of La Rochelle, a Jewish convert to Christianity in early thirteenth-century Paris, is known for his role in the 1240 Disputation of Paris, which resulted in a decree to publicly burn all available manuscripts of the Talmud.

    Contents [hide]
    1 Excommunication
    2 Crusader
    3 Disputations
    3.1 Authority of Pope Gregory IX
    3.2 Authority of King Louis IX
    4 See also
    5 Bibliography

    [edit] ExcommunicationDonin was excommunicated from the ghetto of Paris by Rabbi Yechiel of Paris in the presence of the whole community and with the usual ceremonies. Having for ten years lived in the state of excommunication, though still clinging to Judaism, he was baptised into the Roman Catholic Church and joined the Franciscan Order. Some say, however, that he converted well before meeting Rabbi Yechiel of Paris.

    [edit] CrusaderDonin’s first act of retaliation as a Franciscan was to stir up some Crusaders to the bloody persecutions in Brittany, Poitou, and Anjou, in which 3,000 Jews were killed, 500 accepting the alternative of baptism.

    [edit] Disputations[edit] Authority of Pope Gregory IXIn 1238 Donin went to Rome, presented himself before Pope Gregory IX, and denounced the Talmud. Thirty-five articles were drawn up, in which Donin stated his charges of virulent attacks on the Virginity of Mary and the divinity of Jesus.

    The Pope was persuaded that the accusations were true and dispatched to the authorities of the Church, transcripts of the charges formulated by Donin, accompanied by an order to seize all copies of the Talmud and deposit them with the Dominicans and Franciscans. If an examination corroborated the charges of Donin, the scrolls were to be burned.

    [edit] Authority of King Louis IXThis order was generally ignored, except in France, where the Jews were compelled under pain of death to surrender their Talmuds (March, 1240). Louis IX ordered four of the most distinguished rabbis of France — Yechiel of Paris, Moses of Coucy, Judah of Melun, and Samuel ben Solomon of Château-Thierry—to answer Donin in a public debate. In vain, however, did the rabbis argue against the charges of blasphemy and immorality which were the main points of Donin’s arraignment. The commission condemned the Talmud to be burned. In 1242, fire was set accordingly to twenty-four carriage loads (ten to twelve-thousand volumes) of written works.

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  55. I personally am thrilled that Mr Gurwitz is revealing the inherent racism of not just zionism but judaism as well

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  57. Rashid Ali-
    Since I and other commentors have pointed out that what Gurwitz says is not true, I wouldn’t draw any conclusions based on what he wrote here.

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  59. So now in order to be accepted by the “beautiful people” we have to give up Judaism as well. Giving up “tribal” Zionism would not be enough.

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  61. I feel Yossi’s pen is angry, but I still do not understand why that “what Gurwitz says is not true”…

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  63. Yossi
    have you burned your Talmud yet

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  65. According to this article:

    http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/middle-east/israeli-drive-to-prevent-jewish-girls-dating-arabs

    a survey in 2007 established that over 50% of Jewish Israelis saw mixed marriages as a form of ‘national treason’.

    Whether you regard Jewishness as a religion, a race or a historical invention, there is a serious problem here: a widespread hostile exclusionism that uses fear, hatred and inflated self-regard to attempt to define what it means to be Jewish, and Israeli. Thanks to Yossi for exposing the state suppport of those Jewish supremacists who are actively discouraging mixed couples. Another example of an apartheid state in action.



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