Comments on: Netanyahu calls September elections, expected to win again

By: Maya

Maya — Mon, 07 May 2012 21:39:36 +0000

I understand that the issue is personal for you, and so I’m sorry that I cannot properly continue this conversation at the moment. I’ll be travelling for a couple of weeks with scarce access to the Internet. In brief, I’m not so sure about loving a people. Isn’t a people too abstract? But I’m pretty sure that one can Jewish without being religious. Indeed, it is a quetion of what is the nature of religion.

By: Rowan Berkeley

Rowan Berkeley — Mon, 07 May 2012 04:10:49 +0000

Thank you very much for that thoughtful answer, Maya. I’ll put my own cards upon the table here: I feel Jewish, I always have done, but I have examined my ancestry for four generations, and the only ancestral possibility is my mother’s mother’s father, about whom nothing much is known. The rest are very definitely English by descent. The real question here is about the nature of religion. Is it possible to love the Jewish people (to use that ambiguous term again) without something that might as well be called religious feeling entering into that love? I have a very personal reason for being interested in the parameters of conversion. If I had been able to deal with this question properly, I would have become a Jew (and an Israeli) several decades ago. As it is, even my attempts to learn hebrew (which I also love) have been obstructed, for mere political reasons, which makes me very sad indeed.

By: Maya

Maya — Sun, 06 May 2012 21:39:46 +0000

To Rowan Berkeley and Cortez: these are good questions that you are asking, but I think that the are answers to them, even if they are not popular or mainstream. First, about losing membership: I have met in my life a number of people who are ‘Jewish’ by birth according to Orthodox rules, but are in no way members. They were not raised Jewis, they have no personal connection of attachment to this culture, they don’t consider themselves members, and are indeed in no way members of this people. Second, I also met people who are technically according to Orthosox rules not Jewish, but were raised and socialized Jewish, and so they consdier themselves members. As far as I’m concerned they are indeed members. The fact that the State of Israel wouldn’t recgnize them as such, means that the official rules of membership should be changed. It does not mean that no other rules can be created. Third, if we would insist that Judaism is only a religion, how can we make sense of many people (including me) who see themselves member of the Jewish people as a historical, cultural and political group, even though they are not at all religious and don’t believe in God? So you are right that at the moment the accepted and official membership criteria are birth and religion – but this should and could change! My criteria would be subjective attachment, and familiarity and affinity with the culture(s) and history. I think that this is not very different from criteria of membership in other peoples (or nations). Also, I accept that for many Jews, Judaism IS a religion and not peoplehood. I don’t think that I can claim that they are all wrong. But I think that it is important to clarify the differnce.

By: Cortez

Cortez — Sun, 06 May 2012 17:23:20 +0000

“Can you think of any criterion for membership of “the Jewish people” other than birth or religion? If so, who would adjudicate it?”
.
And how one loses membership and how many generations before one is excluded from the religious and or birth right? I’ve followed the law of return’s definition as opposed to the Karaite definition as opposed to the rabbinate definition and then within that the spectrum of views across the sects…I.e. reform to conservative orthodox) and can’t find a unifying theme. And what to make of Jewish people who become christian or Muslim?

By: Rowan Berkeley

Rowan Berkeley — Sun, 06 May 2012 15:28:11 +0000

Maya, when socialists talk about “peoples” they are referring somewhat euphemistically to nations, which individuals can and do join and leave, usually as a result of intermarriage. So when you say “the Jews as a people (not religion),” what does that imply about persons not of Jewish birth who may wish to join “the Jewish people” as a result of marrying a member of it? If you don’t have a religious formality to regularise this, how exactly do you do it? I assume you are not going to say it can’t be done, because that would amount to defining the Jewish people as a race, which one is either born into or not. At the other extreme, I assume you don’t want to render Jewishness completely meaningless, because then “the Jewish people” would gradually dissolve. Can you think of any criterion for membership of “the Jewish people” other than birth or religion? If so, who would adjudicate it?

By: Maya

Maya — Sun, 06 May 2012 12:39:19 +0000

One of Hadash’s slogans in the 1980s and 1990s was “two states for two peoples”. I understand Zionism as the national liberation movement of the Jewish people: the movement that claims the right of the Jews as a people (not religion) to self-determination. So, “two states for two peoples”, sounds like the right kind of Zionism to me.

Historically, Socialists since the turn of the 20th century supported the idea of peoples’ right to self-determination.

By: XYZ

XYZ — Sun, 06 May 2012 02:46:20 +0000

LMNOP-
That’s the darned thing about democracy, that people you don’t agree with get to vote, too.

I might point out that the “M” in MERETZ, the party you seem to like, stands for MAPAM, a party that originally supported and justified Stalin’s mass purges in which millions died. If you can get over that, you can live with the Ihud HaLeumi.

By: Kibbutznik

Kibbutznik — Fri, 04 May 2012 17:30:14 +0000

lmnop
Meretz lost my vote when they initially supported Operation Cast Lead.
I like and respect Dov Khenin and at this point in time there is nobody I would bother voting for unless Avrum Burg comes up with an alternative.

By: Rowan Berkeley

Rowan Berkeley — Fri, 04 May 2012 13:30:00 +0000

LMNOP, when you condemn Hadash and MAKI for “supporting Assad’s systematic oppression,” are you aware of who the Syrian insurgents actually are? If not, let me tell you: they are Al Qaeda, supported by NATO. The world does not work in the way you evidently imagine it should.

By: lmnop

lmnop — Fri, 04 May 2012 12:47:23 +0000

kibbutznik, i voted hadash last time, mostly as a protest vote against lieberman’s racist campaign. however, i wouldn’t do so again. they speak in two faces to arabs and jews. the recently re-elected chief of maki is a supporter of assad’s systematic oppression.

their record on civil rights and human rights FOR ALL (including asylum seekers, gays, etc…) is not pristine, except for dov khenin. the arab MKs don’t seem to be bothered for anything but domestic and westbank palestinian issues.

the only clean record on social, civil and human rights is found in meretz. although they are seen as elitist, they are the most consequent liberal social left party running.

a bigger meretz bloc back in the knesset would benefit us all.

xyz – you immigrated here in order to vote HaIchud HaLeumi? couldn’t deal with the KKK not catching up in american polls? people like you really make me think we should reconsider the law of return (aliyah). when the day finally comes and judea/samaria will be sovereign palestine, i hope you emigrate there and join hamas. would be a natural progression for you.