Comments on: Escalation in south: IDF takes summer Gaza spin out for 2nd round

By: aristeides

aristeides — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 15:25:58 +0000

So Israelis have no sense of humanity?
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Perhaps it would at least make them think twice about inflicting casualties on others if they could expect to suffer them themselves.
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I consider impunity to be a great evil, one of the greatest, as the cause of so many other evils. Plato understood this when he wrote the myth of Gyges’ ring – a person who was sure he would not be punished would be likely to commit any crime.

By: GR

GR — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 14:50:14 +0000

You’re completely delusional if you think increasing Israeli casualties will make Israeli citizens realize those killing their families are ‘human’ as well.

By: aristeides

aristeides — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:38:01 +0000

btw – as an American, I have to admit that my own country has much the same sense of impunity and entitlement. Israel and the US are alike in that they only pick on enemies with a grossly disproportional inferiority of arms, and prefer to fight their wars on the home ground of their enemies. Our wars, even more than Israel’s, are wars of choice and can in no way be called self-defense. We are buffered by oceans so that the enemies we choose can’t easily reach us.
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There hasn’t been a war fought on US soil for 150 years, yet lately we are constantly waging some war on some other nation’s soil, laying waste to other people’s homelands. Americans, too, could stand to learn what it’s like when their wars come home.

By: aristeides

aristeides — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 13:26:31 +0000

GR – I see the distinction but I reject it. IDF aims its weapons into populated areas with the firm knowledge that civilians, including children, will inevitably be hit and killed. Hundreds and thousands are killed in these exercises. To say that it is not “targeting” civilians is sophistry.
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Gazans fire their unguided, imprecise weapons wherever they can reach, and casualties are minimal, never amounting to “scores.” It’s all they can do. No, it does no good, but compared to the deadly Israeli attacks, there is no moral equivalence.
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You won’t like this, but I would like to see, *in cases of Israeli aggression* the numbers of Israeli dead piling up. I would like to see Israeli civilian dead equal in numbers to the dead of their victims, physical destruction as widespread as the destruction Israel creates when it attacks other nations. Israel needs to lose its sense of impunity, the belief that it can make war on others but others can not make war back on Israel. Israel needs to learn that when states start wars, people get hurt.
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Israelis like to cheer on the killing, sit on the hillsides and watch Gazans die, write death wishes on the bombs about to be dropped on Lebanon, post “GO IDF!” on websites at the news that people have been killed. Many Israelis don’t seem to realize that the people they are killing are people, mostly civilians, but also militants and soldiers attempting to defend their own countries and people. They talk about “exterminating the terrorists” as if these people were rats or cockroaches – the plain language of genocide. And they think they can do this with no risk and inconvenience to themselves.

By: Piotr Berman

Piotr Berman — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 08:34:29 +0000

GR: if you believe in Iron Dome, wait until the geniuses who rule Israel will start a war with Iran.

Israel excels at kidnapping (although with curious choices — power station managers?), assassinations and oppression of villagers. Her methods of resolving disputes over TV frequencies are without compare (send the troops in the middle of the night! Einstein would not figure it out!). One day it will not be enough. You cannot win a war if you do not finish it.

By: GR

GR — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:07:01 +0000

Aristedies –

One other thing. You say “I just care about who dies. And who dies is disproportionately Palestinians.”

So are you suggesting that if Israeli government had not told their schoolchildren to skip school these past two days, and scores had been murdered you would reconsider your position? Is the numerical score of who has more killed really your deciding factor? If Israeli prevention policies were slapshod and there was no Irondome and the number of dead Israelis piled up, would you then reconsider? Is the numerical score of who has more killed really your deciding factor?

My point is that these scenarios are REAL and they are the scenarios Hamas intends for.

By: GR

GR — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 02:00:24 +0000

Aristedies -

Firstly, just because a justification is used often doesn’t mean it’s false.

Secondly, the reason Israelis do not see Gazans as practicing self-defense is because Hamas and the PRC aim at BOTH military and civilian targets. Israel does not. There have been aberrations and Israel has done some terrible things to innocent civilians but as a matter of policy Israel targets combatants, not civilians. The first sixteen killed in Israel’s barrage were known as PRC or Hamas militants.

As a commenter on this post said earlier, the abduction of Gilad Shalit was a regrettable incident for Israelis but it was expected. Israel and Hamas are at war. These things happen. There IS a recognition of Gazan self-defense when that self-defense concerns itself with the IDF and not innocent civilians. Sure Israelis don’t empathize with Hamas when they target military units, but they ‘get’ it. What they don’t get, and what separates Hamas from Israel in any thinking person’s moral universe is who they aim at.

Do you see the distinction I’m trying to make here? It’s completely predicated on the moral question. How can you not care about who points the rockets at who?

By: aristeides

aristeides — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:13:59 +0000

GR – that’s a very, very shopworn excuse. The fact is that Israel kills a large multiple of Gazan civilians for every rare death of an Israeli civilian. I can’t care who’s aiming at whom, I just care about who dies. And who dies is disproportionately Palestinians.

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The fundamental difference stems from the relative military capacities of the two sides. It’s not moral, it’s logistical. “Can you not see why when Gazans are bombed they want to strike back against those across their border?” Turn the language around and the exceptionalism is clear. Israelis seem to expect the Gazans to sit and do nothing, why can’t they see this as an option for themselves? Why can’t they see the Gazans as practicing self-defense? The reason is entitlement so hardwired that most Israelis can’t even recognize it.

By: GR

GR — Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:00:10 +0000

Aristedies – I think a crucial difference is Israeli does not intentionally target non-combatants while the PRC and Hamas do. I’m not excusing collateral damage, but there is a fundamental moral difference in the way the IDF and the Palestinian militias go about fighting each other.

If it weren’t for Israel’s policy of closing schools in besieged areas you might see triple the Israeli civilian casualties than civilian Palestinians.

What you see as entitlement Israelis see as self-defense. That argument will get us nowhere, but can you not see why when Israelis are rocketed they want to strike back (ironically with less impunity than Hamas) against those across their boarder?

By: aristeides

aristeides — Mon, 12 Mar 2012 22:37:43 +0000

SH – yep.

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GR – sorry, but I have no sympathy for people whining about having to cower in a shelter when other people are being blown to bits, having no shelter to go to. If Israelis don’t want to live under rocket fire, they should elect a government that will make peace with Gaza.

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Israelis have this entitlement problem. They think they’re entitled to impunity. They think they can bomb other nations and kill limitless numbers of people without suffering any casualties of their own, or even any inconvenience.

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If Israelis suffered casualties in the same numbers as they inflicted on others, maybe there’d be a little less “Go IDF!” in the comments sections.