After a group of settlers attacked a mosque in one of the villages of Ramallah in the West Bank, the Israeli army put checkpoints at the entrances of the closest settlement and checked the identity of every person going in or out of the settlement. On grounds of fear of escalation the police in Jerusalem decided to allow Jewish worshipers entrance to the Western wall only for those above fifty years of age. Many Jewish leaders protested the actions of the police especially as the closure of the Western Wall coincides with the Jewish high holidays. The police pointed out to possible violence from young settlers if they enter the Western Wall plaza and claimed that their decision is essential for security purposes.
Don’t freak out. The above news didn’t happen. But Imagine, if the police did indeed limit Jewish worshipers from entering the Western Wall. There had been terror attacks carried by settlers in the past, but it has never led to any police actions similar to whats mentioned in the paragraph above. If such an action was to be carried by the police, It would be reported on the front page of every newspaper in Israel and perhaps in the world.
Would Israel ever limit Jewish worshipers in high holidays period from entering the Western wall? I doubt it. It could be the start of a civil war. Jews around the world would be enraged by such a decision regardless of any security justification. It would be considered as a collective punishment and a non democratic action.
But when it comes to Muslims, the standards in Israel are a little bit different.
Last week, after the terror attack in Sinai, 300 KM south of Jerusalem, The Israeli police decided to collectively punish the Muslims in Jerusalem. The Israeli authorities imposed tight restrictions on access to the mosque. The police prevented men under the age of fifty years from accessing the Aqsa mosque to pray. The Israeli police set up roadblocks at the entrances of Jerusalem’s old city and checked the identities of the worshipers before being allowed to pass. The feeling of discrimination and humiliation was intense among young Palestinians which led to clashes between thousands of Palestinians and the Israeli policemen. Police used tear gas to disperse the worshipers.
Al Aqsa mosque is the holiest mosque for Muslims in Palestine and is the third holiest mosque for Muslims across the world. In the Month of Ramadan hundreds of thousands of Palestinians come to pray in Al-Aqsa. West Bank Palestinians can come to prayer only if they receive a permit from the Israeli Authorities. Since the start of the second Intifada, Israel restricted the access to the mosque according to age qualifications. The Israeli decision was justified as a security need.
In the last few weeks, Muslims from Israel, Jerusalem and some west bank residents were allowed to pray in Al-Aqsa mosque without causing any problems. However, after the Sinai attack, the Israeli police decided without presenting any justifications that it was too dangerous to allow young Muslims to pray in the mosque.
Israel’s claim to be a place that guarantees freedom of religion is questionable in light of its treatment of Muslims. The fact that the state of Israel doesn’t hesitate in limiting Muslim worshipers from entering their holiest place in the country cannot be viewed as a tolerant or democratic action. If Israel is to keep calling itself a democracy, it should behave as one. Israel is failing its democratic values and claims when it comes to its treatment of the minorities.
August 29, 2011
3:09 am
@Deir Yassin – thank you. I take any abuse from you as a compliment. By the way, what happened to your BDS? I thought you put me on your ignore list. Pull pullllleeeeeeese do.
August 29, 2011
3:24 am
@Aziz
.
1) The total surface of Al Aqsa inside and around the structure, according to Wikipedia (and feel free to correct me if this is incorrect) is 144,000 square meters . A rule of thumb to determine numbers is one standing person per square meter. We can say then that at most, full capacity would be 130,000 or less, if you allow for some access space, and some room for ambulances, firefighting trucks or police cars in worst scenario cases.
After all, you know much better than I do – and that’s your job to know that – that Al Aqsa has seen earthquakes, fires, and terrorist attacks (I’ll agree with you that terrorists can come from any religious extremism, and even from atheists if they are Jewish anarchists).
.
I think therefore that 100,000 to 120,000 people if you consider that these people are fasting and need some air, is more than adequate. I would agree with you that greater numbers per Friday have been seen, but not this Ramadan.
.
2) Now how do you determine selection criteria is the question. Personally, I don’t think the police came up with the age criteria all by themselves. They usually discuss this kind of questions with the Waqf, plus they have to consider threats they know about. But assuming they don’t discuss it with tthe Waqf, it stands reason that older people, who are generally more given to mosque attendence and usually more pious, should have the first shot.
.
I don’t know what other Jewish ethnicities do, but we Sephardis have a similar problem on Yom Kippur. There are many people who never go to the synagogue during the entire year, but on Yom Kippur, they fast and they all flock there. There is no way some synagogues can handle that many people (who can’t spend the day standing particularly when they have been fasting not from sunrise the same morning but from sunset the day before). So what Jews do to take care of the problem is pay to reserve a seat in advance of the Holiday. That way people can spread out to other synagogues, and it makes the service a lot more pleasant than it would be if they had to spend the day standing packed like sardines.
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3) You wrote: “In the first couple weeks of Ramadan up to 200,000 people prayed there and there were no problem.” I agree. 100,000 the first Friday and probably the same for the second Friday. The total now after the third Friday is around 300,000. Based on previous years, I expect they will allow more for the last Friday of Ramadan.
.
.
I am surprised that people didn’t know. How do you think I know all this and I don’t even live in the Jerusalem area? Simply because on Friday morning they broadcast the restrictions (I get my on-the-spot info from Kol israel) and after the prayer on Friday afternoon report the numbers and if there were any incidents and what they were. I do not doubt that it is reported on Kol Israel in Arabic as well.
August 29, 2011
3:44 am
Mohamed
“The Aqsa and the plaza around it are an Islamic holy site that Jews, not just extremists but mainstream religious, believe should be removed/destroyed to make room for the future Third Temple. ”
Really. And you get all this from one photoshopped picture?
.
Let me tell you how it is and why:
Although it is the historic site of the Second Temple, Jews would be prohibited from building a Temple on it, even if there were no mosque built on it. You know why? Because it has been defiled by idol worshippers (the Romans).
And that’s a consensus.
.
“If it’s important to you, it’s important to you, and I honour that.”
Let’s see you to that.
August 29, 2011
3:51 am
@Sylvia – one person on one square meter? How about 4 or 5. Easy. I’ve never heard of that “rule of thumb” you mentioned.
August 29, 2011
5:33 am
Another way to determine the total capacity is to use the individual prayer rug as unity. Wikipedia tells me that the typical prayer rug sizes are approximately 2.5 × 4 ft (0.76 × 1.2 m) – 4 × 6 ft (1.2 × 1.8 m). That’s 0.912 square meter to 2.16 square meters. The average would be 1.536 square meter per person.
If we assume that ALL prayer rugs are the small 0.912, that would still make the 120-130,000 worshippers full capacity.
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4 or 5 per square meter, Ami? We’re talking prayer, not mouth-to-mouth ressuscitation
August 29, 2011
9:39 am
We’re talking prayer, not mouth-to-mouth ressuscitation
———————————-
Probably they are not holding their breath, eh?
BTW, it is “resuscitation,” not “ressuscitation.”
I can’t believe they are still “debating” the numbers of worshipers at a Muslim site, an issue of no concern for the Jews/Israelis.
Last time I checked, the issue was Israel’s illegal banning of Palestinians from worshiping at their holy sites, a whimsical “price tag” imposed on them by the occupier for violent events they had no part on.
How it did derive into platitudes similar to how many angels fit on a pinhead, is what I call a diversionary tactic, particularly when the poster’s statements reeks of mockery and bigotry.
Taoist
August 29, 2011
10:18 am
No, Taoist, the issue is journalistic integrity. Something you wouldn’t understand.
August 29, 2011
10:46 am
Taoist, I cannot assume anything over a “Palestinian/Arab race” since there is, or was no such thing prior to 1964, when Yasser (and Egyptian) and friends started the PLO and started high jacking planes. I guess you can say there such a people now, but again, this is one of those things that become facts when you say it enough times. The only proof I need for this is to ask where is the “P” sound in Arabic? We are both aware of the rejection of the two states in 1948. The 1949 armistice lines, now known as the pre-1967 lines are what are in dispute today and where the PA wants a state. Prior to 1967 Jordan administered this territory and placed the Arabs who left what became Israel in perpetual concentration camps all over the Arab lands. The Arab rulers used these people as pawns and would not allow them to settle in their (made up countries). In contrast they made life unbearable for Jews in their lands and people such as my wife’s family were forced to flee in the middle of the night, leaving their homes, possessions and businesses behind. The difference if they assimilated in the lands where they moved, many to Israel. In Israel, they are not held to concentration camps and they are allowed to become productive members to build a country. BUT to your other point of the oppressed peoples of the area you called occupied (did Jordan occupy it?). There have been numerous opportunities for peace which have been squandered by BOTH SIDES. Let me ask this. Do you really ever see a time for peace in our lifetimes acknowledging all the wrongs and perceived wrongs? CAN Jerusalem actually ever be a divided city along a street? Seriously? When has that EVER worked before in a city? When has an “International administered city” worked? The first sign of violence and the “Peacekeepers” will be peace pullers outers! I would be willing to live in peace, but, I don’t see Israeli children strapping ball-bearings with explosives on their chests and blowing up civilians. The most vulnerable I ever feel is not when I am in the Temple complex, its waiting in line to get in. Racist NO! Sacred yes! Why! You know why! Experience teaches a lot of things. We are all people. We should be able to share the land… Not kill each other over it. Bringing up Goldstein is 10000/1 Give me a break! I wish I saw otherwise I want to be an optimist. But extremists on both sides have other plans.
August 29, 2011
10:50 am
Last time I checked, it was a lot harder to throw rocks from the Western Wall plaza onto the Temple Mount than vice versa.
August 29, 2011
11:16 am
@ B.I.
T-You obviously didn’t read what I wrote.
——————
I read what you wrote, and I wish I could debate you seriously, but you make it very difficult, first by the company you keep with your copycat buddy-buddy sidekick Bosko, whose escape from a circus hasn’t been noticed yet. Second, even though your English is more legible than your sidekick’s, it is difficult to make sense of what you mean, if you get my drift. I could show you several examples of it, and will do so next time we cross ways. Third, it is clear you guys “work” here, and your one-two-one tactics of reinforcing each other statements, makes it even more difficult to take any of you seriously. I mean, you look like a hasbara couple in steroids.
And if you quack like a duck, and walk like a duck…
Taoist
August 29, 2011
11:23 am
No, Taoist, the issue is journalistic integrity.
———————
Really?
And how would you, of all people, know anything about integrity, period, let alone its derivatives? I could quote from your posts, and show you they reek of bigotry/mockery for the Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims, but I am sure that’s something you wouldn’t understand.
Or pretend not to.
Taoist
August 29, 2011
12:52 pm
@ MARK
Do you really ever see a time for peace in our lifetimes acknowledging all the wrongs and perceived wrongs?
———————
T.
Sure. “Peace is every step,” says Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, meaning, every time we take a step, it can be peaceful, or not. But as MLK, Jr. said, “True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of justice.” As long as the ongoing injustices suffer by the Palestinians are not redressed, peace will be but a fleeting illusion, reason why I stated to you in my first post, in order to have a real base for a debate, you will have to address the occupation.
———————
M.
CAN Jerusalem actually ever be a divided city along a street? Seriously? When has that EVER worked before in a city? When has an “International administered city” worked? The first sign of violence and the “Peacekeepers” will be peace pullers outers!
——————–
T.
Mark, the seminal changes in working for peace, in a seemingly intractable conflict as the one we are debating, start with the vocabulary.
You’re talking about a DIVIDED city, and what do you see? All you see is conflict. How about visualizing a SHARED city? Words can be tools and instruments for the peacemakers, or weapons of war for the warmongers. If you talk division, your mind will go into stress mode; on the contrary, if you talk sharing, your mind will relax a bit. There are many shared cities in Europe and the US, with people talking different languages, from different ethnic backgrounds, living in peace for centuries.
It’s not impossible to visualize Jerusalem as a shared city. But you have to start by changing your vocabulary, which would create a change in your mindset. Try it, is a good meditation exercise.
———————–
M.
I would be willing to live in peace, but, I don’t see Israeli children strapping ball-bearings with explosives on their chests and blowing up civilians.
———————–
T.
Sure you don’t. Blowing up into pieces is a weapon of the downtrodden and the oppressed, the disenfranchised who don’t have weapons or an army to confront their oppressors. Killing of any kind is not justifiable, but it can be understandable why, when, and where it happens.
Just take a look at what the IOF is doing to Palestinian children, and maybe (I doubt it) you would be able to begin to understand why Palestinians do what they do.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/how-israel-takes-its-revenge-on-boys-who-throw-stones-2344037.html
How Israel takes its revenge on boys who throw stones
Video seen by Catrina Stewart reveals the brutal interrogation of young Palestinians
———————-
M.
The most vulnerable I ever feel is not when I am in the Temple complex, its waiting in line to get in.
———————-
T.
Why would you feel vulnerable? Why fear? Don’t you trust your God will deliver you? All fear, Taoism explains, comes from anger. Where does your anger come from?
——————–
Racist NO! Sacred yes! Why! You know why! Experience teaches a lot of things. We are all people. We should be able to share the land… Not kill each other over it. Bringing up Goldstein is 10000/1 Give me a break! I wish I saw otherwise I want to be an optimist. But extremists on both sides have other plans.
———————
T.
The “extremists” seem to be in your head, too, Mark. If you want to have a different vision, your own, you have to set yourself free, and you can’t while your mind is entangled into giving holy sites more importance than human beings, or being unable to recognize the reality of your surroundings. The only person one can change is oneself. Period.
10000/1? I think you’ve got your figures wrong. Have you ever seen the number of Palestinian casualties, vs. Israelis/Jews?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
Israelis and Palestinians Killed in the Current Violence
At least 6,430 Palestinians and 1,084 Israelis
have been killed since September 29, 2000.
That’s an official count, there are many more uncounted Palestinian casualties, besides the maimed, handicapped, blinded, intoxicated, brain damaged, all caused by the IOF’s toxic gases, rubber bullets, and all kinds of weapons of repression. In addition, there are the tortured, imprisoned without any legal means to challenge their jailers, kidnapped, or targeted for assassination by the IOF’s “death squads.”
I see you have a genuine interest in peace. Well, start by opening your heart to the suffering of others, and take your blinds off your eyes, pretending to be the victim, when you are being accomplice to the greatest injustice humanity is currently facing, after the end of S.A.’s apartheid.
For all of us, this is about being human, and for a sizable majority of Israelis/Jewish at-large, with a growing exception, about regaining their lost humanity.
Taoist
August 29, 2011
1:27 pm
@Taoist
“Third, it is clear you guys “work” here, and your one-two-one tactics of reinforcing each other statements”
Paranoia anyone? The quotes below extracted from various posts by our Taoist, speak for themselves …
Taoist to Deir Yassin
“Since BOSKO and BEN ISRAEL are paid to play the role of agent provocateurs, be careful not to engage in a tit-for-tat with them, their role precisely to provoke you to get you banned. They would only turn around, get another nick, and be back here to continue their inciting jobs”
Ooooooh be very caaaaaaareful everyone …. We bite LOL
Taoist to Bosko:
“that’s scary. Are you threatening to shut down this site? What happened to freedom of expression?”
Was this a joke? Maybe … maybe not …
Taoist to Noam Sheizaf
“I am not pursuing either BOSKO or BEN ISRAEL every time they post. There is a pattern in their posting going after those posters, not only me”
Teacher they are following me …. Teacher …. They are picking on me …. Whine
Taoist to Noam Sheizaf
“And my nick, NOAM, is Taoist, not Toist. Thank you”
Taoist to Dhalia Scheindlin
“Dahlia, my nick is Taoist, not Toaist.
Petulant aren’t we? My name is Toist er Toaist, no, Toast ahemmm, Taoist. Did I get that right? LOL
Taoist to Dhalia Scheindlin:
Our Taoist is TOAST. ROFLMAO.
“I will never comment on your articles again”
LOL
August 29, 2011
2:01 pm
@Taoist
On a more serious note. You show respect, you get respect. I am here to debate serious issues and I never disrespected anyone who respected me even if we disagree. Are you able to conduct a serious debate without ridiculing the one you disagree with? If yes, then you’ll get respect. Otherwise …
August 29, 2011
5:04 pm
Sadly Taoist there is a reoccurring theme in your posting and responses to me, that is, it’s all the Israeli’s fault. What about the responsibility of the Palestinians? Do you acknowledge they teach their children to hate? That HAMAS targets innocents and hides among their own innocents in hopes of the IDF killing some? Hey they do not even hide their true intentions of a two stage solution, first two states, then one state… rid of Jews (HAMAS charter… also stated by Ahmadinejad last week on Quds day). Or that the PLO’s official map STILL shows the river to the sea. Where is the trust is in that? That was supposed to ALL have been changed in the Oslo agreements!
You have to also acknowledge that Jews have rights too! And you don’t seem to want to admit that. Everything you post always blames the IDF and the Jews. You never admit fault of the Palestinians.
______________________________
As for shared Jerusalem, let’s just say that I have good reason to have my doubts. If the Muslim sects in Baghdad, Beirut and Damascus can’t live with one another, how can I expect they will live with Jews in Jerusalem? In Beirut, they blow up cars with Christian leaders in them when they don’t like their politics… and you think we can all live in a zen garden of love! Like I said… Not in this generation Taoist… I do not believe its possible. And I do not believe that the Jews should be the ones to give it up, The Muslims had their chance to oversee it and Jews had NO chance to pray there. At least with Jews overseeing it, even with Aziz’s compliant, Everyone has a better shot than what it was before.
August 29, 2011
6:42 pm
@Taoist
On a more serious note.
———————
Now, that’s really funny.
Guess part of B.’s job is to keep a dossier for every poster, with every comment considered “anti-Zionist” classified for “future” purposes. What a miserable job.
On another note, my nick here is my name, I don’t get into the careless habit of misspelling people’s names, which I consider disrespectful. There is nothing petulant in demanding people to call me by my nickname, it is basic respect. At the most I abbreviate posters’ nicks for reason of space.
In both cases, NOAM and DAHLIA, they didn’t have the decency to apologize for their typo/mistake, in which case I can conclude it was done on purpose. Their privilege. It only shows a bit of who they believe they are.
Finally, I thought I was talking to the circus’ owner. As for taking you seriously, have you ever seen the moon turn blue? BTW, stop being a copycat, and parroting my fun lines.
Taoist
August 29, 2011
9:36 pm
@ MARK,
Sadly Taoist there is a reoccurring theme in your posting and responses to me, that is, it’s all the Israeli’s fault.
————————-
T.
Sadly, Mark, as long as the occupation remains, which you refuse to acknowledge, Israel will “own” the Palestinians, and their behavior. It would be impossible for you to understand their actions, if your point of departure is a false “sense of entitlement” to what is rightfully Palestinian land, internationally recognized by law.
Newton’s third law of physics states “Every action has a reaction in equal magnitude and opposite direction.” It applies to human life too, besides everything else. You oppress, you will get a reaction, and you steal, same thing.
As long as that is not part of your consciousness, you will be unable to see the root of your predicament, and continue to see yourself as a victim, which you’re not.
—————————
M.
What about the responsibility of the Palestinians?
—————————-
T.
Their only responsibility, which they cannot forsake, is to struggle against their oppressor. “There is nothing more important than independence and freedom,” said Hồ Chí Minh, and I share that wise opinion.
————————
M.
Do you acknowledge they teach their children to hate?
————————-
T.
Do they need to? You sow hate, you will get hate. As for teaching hate, what do you think Israelis learn in school about Arabs/Palestinians in school? Lots of tender love and care? I don’t think so.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/07/israeli-school-racism-claim
Academic claims Israeli school textbooks contain bias
Nurit Peled-Elhanan of Hebrew University says textbooks depict Palestinians as ‘terrorists, refugees and primitive farmers’
[...]“People don’t really know what their children are reading in textbooks,” she said. “One question that bothers many people is how do you explain the cruel behaviour of Israeli soldiers towards Palestinians, an indifference to human suffering, the inflicting of suffering. People ask how can these nice Jewish boys and girls become monsters once they put on a uniform. I think the major reason for that is education. So I wanted to see how school books represent Palestinians.” [...]
I am getting to realize there is nothing that will change your mindset, but that’s not my purpose when debating you. You constantly sideline the issues that don’t favor your narrative, and continue repeating the same things again and again. Don’t you find that boring, mind-wise, thought-wise?
—————–
M.
That HAMAS targets innocents and hides among their own innocents in hopes of the IDF killing some?
—————–
T.
When pointing your index finger to others, see that your thumb is pointing at you. On using civilians as human shields, the inglorious and infamous IOF are the masters, and have been universally and internationally condemned for that practice…
(1 of 2)
August 29, 2011
9:39 pm
PLEASE NOTE: This is the LAST TIME +972 will publish a comment of this length. If you cannot make your point in 300 words or less, then start a blog. There will be no further warnings. Editor
(2 of 2)
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/israel-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-2010
[…] Use of civilians as ‘human shields’
On several occasions Israeli soldiers used Palestinian civilians, including children, as “human shields” during military operations, or forced them to carry out dangerous tasks. Israeli soldiers also launched attacks from near inhabited houses.
For two days from 5 January, Israeli forces held Yousef Abu ‘Ida, his wife Leila and their nine children as “human shields” in their home in Hay al-Salam, east of Jabalia, while they used the house as a military position. They then forced the family out and destroyed the house. […]
FYI, HAMAS is partly an Israeli/Mossad creation, which they thought to exploit against the PLO, and by the law of unintended consequences, Israel’s brainchild turned against them.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
[...] “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation,” says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel’s destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. [...]
———————————-
M.
Hey they do not even hide their true intentions of a two stage solution, first two states, then one state… rid of Jews (HAMAS charter… also stated by Ahmadinejad last week on Quds day). Or that the PLO’s official map STILL shows the river to the sea. Where is the trust is in that? That was supposed to ALL have been changed in the Oslo agreements!
You have to also acknowledge that Jews have rights too! And you don’t seem to want to admit that. Everything you post always blames the IDF and the Jews. You never admit fault of the Palestinians.
—————————————
T.
If I were to occupy your house, kick you out, then set you up to live in the backyard, surrounded by barbed-wire in an open-air prison, beat you up every time you complain, kill your relatives if they protest against my oppression, and control every aspect of your life, any objective observer wouldn’t think you were at fault for fighting me.
As an objective observer myself, I am able to see what helps, or not, the Palestinian cause, and Hamas actions are, in most cases, detrimental to their struggle. Hamas would be but a footnote in the history of the conflict, if the Israeli leadership were smarter and had real intentions of solving the conflict, but that has never been their goal.
Israel’s false “sense of entitlement” rooted in their religious beliefs, will forever preclude a solution to the conflict.
————————————-
M.
As for shared Jerusalem, let’s just say that I have good reason to have my doubts. If the Muslim sects in Baghdad, Beirut and Damascus can’t live with one another, how can I expect they will live with Jews in Jerusalem? In Beirut, they blow up cars with Christian leaders in them when they don’t like their politics… and you think we can all live in a zen garden of love! Like I said… Not in this generation Taoist… I do not believe its possible. And I do not believe that the Jews should be the ones to give it up, The Muslims had their chance to oversee it and Jews had NO chance to pray there. At least with Jews overseeing it, even with Aziz’s compliant, Everyone has a better shot than what it was before.
——————————–
T.
You’re entitled to your views, mistaken as they are. What your statement reflects is your bigoted/distorted view of Arabs everywhere, an integral part of your “education” I guess, which has nothing to do with the subject at hand. You practice the same tactics used by some hasbara posters here, putting all Arabs in a cat-bag, extrapolating their behavior to the Palestinians, and, God forbid, what IT COULD BE if Israelis give up their role as oppressors.
Not a logical way of reasoning. But I am sure you can’t see that, can you?
Taoist
August 29, 2011
9:57 pm
PLEASE NOTE: This is the LAST TIME +972 will publish a comment of this length. If you cannot make your point in 300 words or less, then start a blog. There will be no further warnings. Editor
————————
Good enough.
Thanks for the warning.
Taoist
August 29, 2011
11:24 pm
“Now, that’s really funny ….” (Taoist)
No Taoist, that’s sad. Never let it be said I didn’t give you a chance.
August 30, 2011
11:24 am
Whoa Taoist, so I am mistaken and bigoted because I see Muslims killing each other and wonder if the Palestinians are capable of the same. They having just done so in the fight over Gaza 2 years ago… or the headline today that Abbas can’t visit Gaza or it will cause “threats on his life and other violence” http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=235991 . But let’s talk about the future. I do not defend everything Israel does and there have been things that are not helpful. But just as you want me to acknowledge the Palestinians and their plight and their issues (I do), they too must acknowledge Israel AND LET GO OF THE NOTION THAT IT ISRAEL IS OCCUPIED. They speak of occupation not only of Ramallah but of Ashdod, Jaffe, Lode, Haifa, Beersheva and Natanyna. Israel has made many bold moves and bold gestures. Pulling out of Gaza was one such move. Incremental steps require reciprocity. But instead of acknowledgment of nice first step, what Israel got was thousands of rockets and get the hell out of the rest of my land (Ashdod, Jaffe, Lode, Haifa, Beersheva and Natanyna)… So stop giving me this “they are victims BS,” it’s time for bold actions of the Palestinians side. Otherwise the BS goes right past me and others. So far all I have heard is we want everything, that’s our position take it or leave it. No compromise. Oh, and now we are not coming to a table we are going to the UN where we will just bypass you Israel. But peace requires the two on the borders in order for it to work so good luck in the UN! It also requires… COMPROMISE. And honoring your agreements. So Taoist, you can give me one more response about the wrongs, some of which I have acknowledged… But facts are stubborn things they require BOTH sides accept to do something about and enforce. So far I have only seen my side coming to the table. I’m done!
August 30, 2011
12:03 pm
I will stipulate for the record that I consider the “Occupation” to be a permanent part of the Israeli system rather than an ever-temporary state of being which could be readily reversed.
Nevertheless, a better analysis would compare the religious rights of Israeli citizens who are Muslim to those of Israeli citizens who are Jewish, in territorial Israel. How equal are those religious rights? Would any one care to investigate?
September 1, 2011
4:57 pm
@ MARK,
Mark, all stereotypes are by definition, bigoted, and what you are doing is precisely that, stereotyping Muslims. There is no relation between the violence in Lebanon, Iraq or Syria, other than Muslims are the majority in those countries, and that you fail to analyze the particular context from which violence sprouts in each one of them. Putting it all on “Muslims” is easier and convenient, for your narrative.
European kingdoms and empires spent most of the 1800s in wars of all kinds, and no one blamed, or blames, “the Europeans” of being warmongers. Africa has been navigating a sea of violence pre, during, and post independence, and no one blames “Africans” for it, because each country has its own particularities to generate violence. South East Asia was mired in conflicts most of the last part of the XX century, and no one pointed fingers to the “Asians” as a warmongering race.
Currently and south of the border, all these “drug-wars” are going on, with 40,000 and counting killed in Mexico in only 4 years, with thousands more killed in Guatemala, Central and South America, and no one blames “Latinos” or “Hispanics” for the violence.
Every country has different socio-economic conditions, and Lebanon, for example, has seen a lot of violence from different religious groups, not just Muslims.
On the occupation: believe me, is not a mirage, if most of the world recognizes it, it might exist. Either we are blind, or you are.
The rockets are a military non-entity, and even though they have caused lethal damage, how can you compare primitive weapons with Israel’s military might? Dud rockets against fighter jets? Stones against automatic rifles, toxic gases, water cannons, etc.?
The blame for the Palestinian drive at the UN, can be found at Netanyahu’s feet, whose aim has been to deny the Palestinians a state, while pretending to negotiate all along.
Thanks for your answers. I don’t think this is a matter of blame, and I am not at all pushing a guilt trip on you. All I do is to place some facts for your recognition, or not.
Akiva Orr has been “teaching a course” on Israel’s history foundations here,
http://972mag.com/akiva-orr-on-j14-the-longest-journey-starts-with-one-small-step/comment-page-3/#comment-22170
it might be of interest for you to learn from an interpretation that questions yours.
Taoist