Comments on: For European author, Hebrew culture existed outside Zionism http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Sat, 25 May 2013 03:21:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: sh http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59878 sh Fri, 04 May 2012 13:14:34 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59878 Well, K9, Max, I got impatient with hearing all the things Hebrew culture was not and so made up what it might be, just to amuse myself. Thanks, K9, for explaining what you mean by it. I actually pretty much agree with you, but cautiously differ as to the chances of Hebrew surviving as a written language in the diaspora. It largely depends on education, which varies widely from country to country. And how education is designed depends on motivation. I was struck by the way modern orthodox teenagers coming here from South American countries a few decades back arrived here speaking and writing not only good Ivrit but fluent Yiddish, both of which they said they'd learned at school. . "The themes that were common were those related to interactions with a foreign dominant culture and the identity compromises that had to be made." Precisely. The point I wanted but apparently failed to make was that in this mobile, "global" age, interaction with a foreign dominant culture and identity compromises, whether one is the majority culture or the minority, is a struggle no longer specific or exclusive to Jews. That makes Jewish culture more meaningful to the other cultures in the same boat; it follows that the way other cultures deal with such issues would also really speak to Jews. Well, K9, Max, I got impatient with hearing all the things Hebrew culture was not and so made up what it might be, just to amuse myself. Thanks, K9, for explaining what you mean by it. I actually pretty much agree with you, but cautiously differ as to the chances of Hebrew surviving as a written language in the diaspora. It largely depends on education, which varies widely from country to country. And how education is designed depends on motivation. I was struck by the way modern orthodox teenagers coming here from South American countries a few decades back arrived here speaking and writing not only good Ivrit but fluent Yiddish, both of which they said they’d learned at school.
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“The themes that were common were those related to interactions with a foreign dominant culture and the identity compromises that had to be made.”
Precisely. The point I wanted but apparently failed to make was that in this mobile, “global” age, interaction with a foreign dominant culture and identity compromises, whether one is the majority culture or the minority, is a struggle no longer specific or exclusive to Jews. That makes Jewish culture more meaningful to the other cultures in the same boat; it follows that the way other cultures deal with such issues would also really speak to Jews.

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59817 Kolumn9 Fri, 04 May 2012 02:54:55 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59817 Sh, thanks for responding. When talking about Jewish culture I was referring to the themes that were once dominant in secular-oriented Jewish culture when it came into contact with other cultures and secular powers and its relationship with more religion oriented Judaism itself. The themes that were common were those related to interactions with a foreign dominant culture and the identity compromises that had to be made. Whether these themes are 'ubiquitous' or its synonym 'universal' in Western literature now is a matter of vocabulary only... I don't think I ever argued that Yiddish culture was real Jewish culture, but I may have argued that within Yiddish literature in Eastern Europe the Jewish elements were native to the environment because of the relative cultural isolation from the surrounding culture. Such circumstances no longer exist both due to the destruction of that lifestyle and to the obvious lack of cultural isolation of Jews in the Western world. . There was also Jewish literature written in Hebrew in Eastern Europe and elsewhere, especially before mass education. However, after the opening up of Jewish communities to the outside world in Eastern Europe and away from strictly Judaism-oriented themes authors preferred to express themselves in their vernacular language to a larger audience who read in the same vernacular. . When I talk about Hebrew literature or culture I am explicitly talking about literature in the Hebrew language with no bias as to whether it corresponds to Israeli culture or not. It doesn't even matter here whether it uses Ivrit or any other version of Hebrew. The future prospects for Hebrew literature in the diaspora are not bright. It might still be used for some religious polemic, but it is unlikely to be widely used as a literary language by people whose vernacular language is different. It might work the other way around. For example, I saw a complaint a couple of days ago by a modern Orthodox American Jew that a terrible English translation was being referred to at some prominent modern Orthodox lecture on Jewish topics instead of referring to the original Hebrew source. . I also agree with Max that your last post is just full of logical holes and to me it seems to be an awkward attempt to change the topic. Sh, thanks for responding. When talking about Jewish culture I was referring to the themes that were once dominant in secular-oriented Jewish culture when it came into contact with other cultures and secular powers and its relationship with more religion oriented Judaism itself. The themes that were common were those related to interactions with a foreign dominant culture and the identity compromises that had to be made. Whether these themes are ‘ubiquitous’ or its synonym ‘universal’ in Western literature now is a matter of vocabulary only… I don’t think I ever argued that Yiddish culture was real Jewish culture, but I may have argued that within Yiddish literature in Eastern Europe the Jewish elements were native to the environment because of the relative cultural isolation from the surrounding culture. Such circumstances no longer exist both due to the destruction of that lifestyle and to the obvious lack of cultural isolation of Jews in the Western world.
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There was also Jewish literature written in Hebrew in Eastern Europe and elsewhere, especially before mass education. However, after the opening up of Jewish communities to the outside world in Eastern Europe and away from strictly Judaism-oriented themes authors preferred to express themselves in their vernacular language to a larger audience who read in the same vernacular.
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When I talk about Hebrew literature or culture I am explicitly talking about literature in the Hebrew language with no bias as to whether it corresponds to Israeli culture or not. It doesn’t even matter here whether it uses Ivrit or any other version of Hebrew. The future prospects for Hebrew literature in the diaspora are not bright. It might still be used for some religious polemic, but it is unlikely to be widely used as a literary language by people whose vernacular language is different. It might work the other way around. For example, I saw a complaint a couple of days ago by a modern Orthodox American Jew that a terrible English translation was being referred to at some prominent modern Orthodox lecture on Jewish topics instead of referring to the original Hebrew source.
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I also agree with Max that your last post is just full of logical holes and to me it seems to be an awkward attempt to change the topic.

]]> By: max http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59766 max Thu, 03 May 2012 20:50:24 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59766 "If Hebrew culture is by definition Israel-based," - was never said and can't be deducted "although Hebrew culture existed outside the Zionism of the ideology’s founding fathers prior to the holocaust, it can’t exist in the diaspora..." - was never said and can't be deducted "Because if Israel went down, heaven forbid, Hebrew would go down with it." - was never said and can't be deducted Pity to see this jump to silly demagogic tricks “If Hebrew culture is by definition Israel-based,” – was never said and can’t be deducted
“although Hebrew culture existed outside the Zionism of the ideology’s founding fathers prior to the holocaust, it can’t exist in the diaspora…” – was never said and can’t be deducted
“Because if Israel went down, heaven forbid, Hebrew would go down with it.” – was never said and can’t be deducted
Pity to see this jump to silly demagogic tricks

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59742 sh Thu, 03 May 2012 19:32:37 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59742 Oh Lord, I garbled that one. I meant to ask whether the subject matter of the Israeli authors is more Jew-specific in content than that of N.Krauss, P.Roth or any contemporary diaspora Jewish writer anyone cares to mention. . If Hebrew culture is by definition Israel-based, why don't we call it Israeli culture? (- Mind you, if Israeli Hebrew continues to evolve the way it has for the past couple of decades, it may well eventually become a kind of American English written in Hebrew characters. Which is where we came in with Yiddish, Judeo-Arabic, Ladino.... -). . To sum up my understanding of it, the Hebrew culture people are arguing that although Hebrew culture existed outside the Zionism of the ideology's founding fathers prior to the holocaust, it can't exist in the diaspora: post-holocaust; since the creation of Israel; because of the existence of Israel - take your pick. And that's why Israel must be defended tooth and nail no matter how she conducts herself. Because if Israel went down, heaven forbid, Hebrew would go down with it. Oh Lord, I garbled that one. I meant to ask whether the subject matter of the Israeli authors is more Jew-specific in content than that of N.Krauss, P.Roth or any contemporary diaspora Jewish writer anyone cares to mention.
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If Hebrew culture is by definition Israel-based, why don’t we call it Israeli culture? (- Mind you, if Israeli Hebrew continues to evolve the way it has for the past couple of decades, it may well eventually become a kind of American English written in Hebrew characters. Which is where we came in with Yiddish, Judeo-Arabic, Ladino…. -).
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To sum up my understanding of it, the Hebrew culture people are arguing that although Hebrew culture existed outside the Zionism of the ideology’s founding fathers prior to the holocaust, it can’t exist in the diaspora:
post-holocaust;
since the creation of Israel;
because of the existence of Israel – take your pick.
And that’s why Israel must be defended tooth and nail no matter how she conducts herself. Because if Israel went down, heaven forbid, Hebrew would go down with it.

]]> By: max http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59688 max Thu, 03 May 2012 10:49:45 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59688 "I take that to mean that it is not necessarily the case that every Jew who wants to stay one must understand Israeli Hebrew" - yes, it's implied from what I wrote. . I disagree with the conclusion you make due to Search coming up with Jewish replacing Hebrew. What it shows is that the traditional association of Hebrew as synonym to Jewish (in several languages Hebrew is the word for Jewish in English) is still stronger (as in number of publications) than Hebrew referring to the language. Apparently, Hebrew-language literature isn't much referred to on the Internet. . “I take that to mean that it is not necessarily the case that every Jew who wants to stay one must understand Israeli Hebrew” – yes, it’s implied from what I wrote.
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I disagree with the conclusion you make due to Search coming up with Jewish replacing Hebrew. What it shows is that the traditional association of Hebrew as synonym to Jewish (in several languages Hebrew is the word for Jewish in English) is still stronger (as in number of publications) than Hebrew referring to the language. Apparently, Hebrew-language literature isn’t much referred to on the Internet.
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]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59678 sh Thu, 03 May 2012 09:28:23 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59678 Wikipedia Jewish culture link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_culture Wikipedia Jewish culture link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_culture

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59677 sh Thu, 03 May 2012 09:26:36 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59677 I don't know of specifically Jewish cultural themes except those pertaining to the religion itself, K9, I thought you would enlighten me. If you did, apologies, I must have missed it. I'd be grateful if you'd point me to where they are. To me, the word ubiquitous means cropping up again and again all over the place and you'd never follow it by "to". To you, from your explanation, it means universal - must be a European versus American English thing, not important. The Yiddish culture that I think it may have been you who told us was real Jewish culture but was murdered, did ground-breaking things like translating Shakespeare into Yiddish for the Yiddish Theatre, which is sort of what Moses Mendelssohn did with his translation of the Hebrew Bible into German (his mastery of Hebrew came from heder too), but in the opposite direction. Both smashed the narrow confines of Jewish existence hitherto and brought Jews into contact the with the cultures that surrounded them. About winning or losing debates, I'm not into winning so much as learning so it won't hurt me if you've won, I'd just like to understand why. . Looking up Hebrew culture, Wikipedia's Jewish Culture comes up top of the list. The last paragraph of the introduction reads so: . "Throughout history, in eras and places as diverse as the ancient Hellenic world, in Europe before and after the Age of Enlightenment, in Islamic Spain and Portugal, in North Africa and the Middle East, in India and China, and in the contemporary United States and Israel, Jewish communities have seen the development of cultural phenomena that are characteristically Jewish without being at all specifically religious. Some factors in this come from within Judaism, others from the interaction of Jews with host populations in the Diasporas, and others from the inner social and cultural dynamics of the community, as opposed to religion itself. This phenomenon has led to considerably different Jewish cultures unique to their own communities." . Max, you point out that Hebrew-based culture will not have more than anecdotal development outside a Hebrew-speaking society. I take that to mean that it is not necessarily the case that every Jew who wants to stay one must understand Israeli Hebrew. This literature will be translated into many languages the way the works of Israel's most successful writers have already been over the years. . Is their subject matter is less universal and more Jewish than Nicole Krauss's or Philip Roth's. . And if Hebrew culture basically amounts to culture in the Hebrew language, why the loss of proportion regarding Israel? I don’t know of specifically Jewish cultural themes except those pertaining to the religion itself, K9, I thought you would enlighten me. If you did, apologies, I must have missed it. I’d be grateful if you’d point me to where they are. To me, the word ubiquitous means cropping up again and again all over the place and you’d never follow it by “to”. To you, from your explanation, it means universal – must be a European versus American English thing, not important. The Yiddish culture that I think it may have been you who told us was real Jewish culture but was murdered, did ground-breaking things like translating Shakespeare into Yiddish for the Yiddish Theatre, which is sort of what Moses Mendelssohn did with his translation of the Hebrew Bible into German (his mastery of Hebrew came from heder too), but in the opposite direction. Both smashed the narrow confines of Jewish existence hitherto and brought Jews into contact the with the cultures that surrounded them. About winning or losing debates, I’m not into winning so much as learning so it won’t hurt me if you’ve won, I’d just like to understand why.
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Looking up Hebrew culture, Wikipedia’s Jewish Culture comes up top of the list. The last paragraph of the introduction reads so:
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“Throughout history, in eras and places as diverse as the ancient Hellenic world, in Europe before and after the Age of Enlightenment, in Islamic Spain and Portugal, in North Africa and the Middle East, in India and China, and in the contemporary United States and Israel, Jewish communities have seen the development of cultural phenomena that are characteristically Jewish without being at all specifically religious. Some factors in this come from within Judaism, others from the interaction of Jews with host populations in the Diasporas, and others from the inner social and cultural dynamics of the community, as opposed to religion itself. This phenomenon has led to considerably different Jewish cultures unique to their own communities.”
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Max, you point out that Hebrew-based culture will not have more than anecdotal development outside a Hebrew-speaking society. I take that to mean that it is not necessarily the case that every Jew who wants to stay one must understand Israeli Hebrew. This literature will be translated into many languages the way the works of Israel’s most successful writers have already been over the years.
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Is their subject matter is less universal and more Jewish than Nicole Krauss’s or Philip Roth’s.
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And if Hebrew culture basically amounts to culture in the Hebrew language, why the loss of proportion regarding Israel?

]]> By: max http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59636 max Wed, 02 May 2012 23:18:47 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59636 Interesting discussion, but getting a bit out of focus: Hebrew and Jewish cultures are related but not the same. It's very unlikely that Hebrew-based culture will have more than anecdotal development outside a Hebrew-speaking society, while Jewish societies have flourished without Hebrew (as their main language). Whether or not the latter could continue is speculative. Interesting discussion, but getting a bit out of focus: Hebrew and Jewish cultures are related but not the same. It’s very unlikely that Hebrew-based culture will have more than anecdotal development outside a Hebrew-speaking society, while Jewish societies have flourished without Hebrew (as their main language). Whether or not the latter could continue is speculative.

]]> By: Kolumn9 http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59633 Kolumn9 Wed, 02 May 2012 23:04:41 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59633 Sh, 1) Nope, I think we agree on the meaning of ubiquitous. Themes like exclusion from dominant culture, conflicting identities, diaspora and others are certainly ubiquitous in modern Western literature. 2) I am pretty familiar with the study of Hebrew in the diaspora. Studying Hebrew for religious purposes is not likely to produce Hebrew literature, especially where people are significantly more literate in the local non-Hebrew language. How much Hebrew literature has the American Jewish community produced recently? 3) I have already proposed the themes that I consider to be Jewish, you just aren't reading and I must point out that you have not reciprocated with what you consider to be Jewish themes. . Sh, you have chosen to dismiss rather than respond. This is usually considered a defeat in debates. Sh,
1) Nope, I think we agree on the meaning of ubiquitous. Themes like exclusion from dominant culture, conflicting identities, diaspora and others are certainly ubiquitous in modern Western literature.

2) I am pretty familiar with the study of Hebrew in the diaspora. Studying Hebrew for religious purposes is not likely to produce Hebrew literature, especially where people are significantly more literate in the local non-Hebrew language. How much Hebrew literature has the American Jewish community produced recently?

3) I have already proposed the themes that I consider to be Jewish, you just aren’t reading and I must point out that you have not reciprocated with what you consider to be Jewish themes.
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Sh, you have chosen to dismiss rather than respond. This is usually considered a defeat in debates.

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/diaspora-writers-who-wrote-in-hebrew-proves-diversity-of-jewish-identity/44025/comment-page-1/#comment-59625 sh Wed, 02 May 2012 22:23:39 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44025#comment-59625 Tom Segev did a great piece in last weekend's Haaretz on a lengthy e-mail discussion between Israeli intellectuals on "Is Israel just one option among many, or is the place of the Jewish people in its own land?" http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/the-makings-of-history/keyboard-warriors-fighting-over-israel-s-future-1.426848 . Loved this line from Dan Miron: ""Kurt Weill, George Gershwin and Leonard Bernstein didn't come anywhere near Naomi Shemer? Woody Allen is fleabane next to Joseph Cedar?"" . Well? Tom Segev did a great piece in last weekend’s Haaretz on a lengthy e-mail discussion between Israeli intellectuals on “Is Israel just one option among many, or is the place of the Jewish people in its own land?”
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/the-makings-of-history/keyboard-warriors-fighting-over-israel-s-future-1.426848
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Loved this line from Dan Miron:
“”Kurt Weill, George Gershwin and Leonard Bernstein didn’t come anywhere near Naomi Shemer? Woody Allen is fleabane next to Joseph Cedar?”"
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Well?

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