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	<title>Comments on: Demystifying one-state, acknowledging facts</title>
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	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
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		<title>By: rose</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-94792</link>
		<dc:creator>rose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 08:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-94792</guid>
		<description>the 2 states solution is alive and more important than ever, unless e want to justify ipso facto what the settlers did and are doing. In the words of Uri Avnery:

     If someone despairs of swimming the English Channel and decides, therefore, to swim across the Atlantic Ocean, it might be considered slightly odd. When my Palestinian friend, Michael Tarazy, despairs of the two-state solution and now advocates One State (IHT, Oct. 5), it does not look to me much more realistic.

     Many beautiful utopian ideas have come to nothing, and some, like communism, have caused great tragedies, because they run contrary to human nature.

     France is a member of the EU, but tell a Frenchman to dismantle France and merge with, say, the Germans in One State, and he will not be amused. The idea that Israelis would voluntarily dissolve their state, for which they have fought so hard (and for which, according to Zionist dogma, &quot;eighty generations have longed and prayed&quot;) is far-fetched indeed. It could only happen after a crushing military defeat, but then the whole question would be moot anyway.

     Nor, I believe, will the mass of the Palestinians give up their right to have a state of their own, like any other people on earth -unless, of course, the One State solution is a euphemism for dismantling Israel and turning all of the country into an Arab state.

     Since nothing like this will happen in the next 100 years, the discussion could end right here. However, it may be worthwhile to examine some of the points made:

     -  There is very little similarity between Israel/Palestine and South Africa. In Israel/Palestine we have two nations with different histories, cultures, languages, religions and national aspirations.

     -  The apartheid rulers were partners of the Nazis and universally detested. Israel is &quot;the state of the Holocaust survivors&quot;, and, as such, enjoys considerable sympathy and immunity from criticism. The pressure of world public opinion that helped bring racist South Africa to its knees is not going to materialize here.

    -   Per capita income of Israelis is almost tenfold higher than that of the Palestinians. Not only militarily, but also technologically and economically, the gap is immense. In the putative One State, Israelis will dominate all fields of endeavor for generations to come. The One State would in practice be an apartheid state.

     -   Even preaching the One State solution is dangerous, since it legitimizes the eradication of the pre-1967 Green Line and the unlimited expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. If one advocates this solution, how can one object to Israelis living everywhere in the country?

     -   At this point in time, more Israelis than Palestinians live between the Mediterranean and the Jordan. One has indeed to be naive beyond belief to imagine that Israelis would accord the Palestinians citizenship and then passively stand by while Palestinians become the majority, thus effectively turning the state into another country where Jews are a tolerated minority.

     -  It is far more likely that in the joint state there would rage a perpetual civil war, making the present conflict look like a garden party.

     No, the two-state solution, which my friends and I have advocated for the last 55 years (following the 1947 UN resolution to that effect) is not only the best solution, it is the only one. The alternative is not One State, but escalating bloodshed, ethnic cleansing and catastrophe.

     Two States do not mean two ghettoes. On the contrary, we want two states with an open border between them, not the US-Mexico but the US-Canada model. While each side will live in a state that expresses its national identity, our economies will inevitably grow closer together, our joint capital (Jerusalem) will symbolize our joint destiny. And down the road, some kind of Semitic Union, on the lines of the EU, may come into being.

     Already 22 years ago, Yasser Arafat told me of his belief in a &quot;Benelux solution&quot; - a close cooperation between three sovereignstates, Israel, Palestine and Jordan. He has repeated this many times since. I share this view with him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the 2 states solution is alive and more important than ever, unless e want to justify ipso facto what the settlers did and are doing. In the words of Uri Avnery:</p>
<p>     If someone despairs of swimming the English Channel and decides, therefore, to swim across the Atlantic Ocean, it might be considered slightly odd. When my Palestinian friend, Michael Tarazy, despairs of the two-state solution and now advocates One State (IHT, Oct. 5), it does not look to me much more realistic.</p>
<p>     Many beautiful utopian ideas have come to nothing, and some, like communism, have caused great tragedies, because they run contrary to human nature.</p>
<p>     France is a member of the EU, but tell a Frenchman to dismantle France and merge with, say, the Germans in One State, and he will not be amused. The idea that Israelis would voluntarily dissolve their state, for which they have fought so hard (and for which, according to Zionist dogma, &#8220;eighty generations have longed and prayed&#8221;) is far-fetched indeed. It could only happen after a crushing military defeat, but then the whole question would be moot anyway.</p>
<p>     Nor, I believe, will the mass of the Palestinians give up their right to have a state of their own, like any other people on earth -unless, of course, the One State solution is a euphemism for dismantling Israel and turning all of the country into an Arab state.</p>
<p>     Since nothing like this will happen in the next 100 years, the discussion could end right here. However, it may be worthwhile to examine some of the points made:</p>
<p>     &#8211;  There is very little similarity between Israel/Palestine and South Africa. In Israel/Palestine we have two nations with different histories, cultures, languages, religions and national aspirations.</p>
<p>     &#8211;  The apartheid rulers were partners of the Nazis and universally detested. Israel is &#8220;the state of the Holocaust survivors&#8221;, and, as such, enjoys considerable sympathy and immunity from criticism. The pressure of world public opinion that helped bring racist South Africa to its knees is not going to materialize here.</p>
<p>    &#8211;   Per capita income of Israelis is almost tenfold higher than that of the Palestinians. Not only militarily, but also technologically and economically, the gap is immense. In the putative One State, Israelis will dominate all fields of endeavor for generations to come. The One State would in practice be an apartheid state.</p>
<p>     &#8211;   Even preaching the One State solution is dangerous, since it legitimizes the eradication of the pre-1967 Green Line and the unlimited expansion of Israeli settlements in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. If one advocates this solution, how can one object to Israelis living everywhere in the country?</p>
<p>     &#8211;   At this point in time, more Israelis than Palestinians live between the Mediterranean and the Jordan. One has indeed to be naive beyond belief to imagine that Israelis would accord the Palestinians citizenship and then passively stand by while Palestinians become the majority, thus effectively turning the state into another country where Jews are a tolerated minority.</p>
<p>     &#8211;  It is far more likely that in the joint state there would rage a perpetual civil war, making the present conflict look like a garden party.</p>
<p>     No, the two-state solution, which my friends and I have advocated for the last 55 years (following the 1947 UN resolution to that effect) is not only the best solution, it is the only one. The alternative is not One State, but escalating bloodshed, ethnic cleansing and catastrophe.</p>
<p>     Two States do not mean two ghettoes. On the contrary, we want two states with an open border between them, not the US-Mexico but the US-Canada model. While each side will live in a state that expresses its national identity, our economies will inevitably grow closer together, our joint capital (Jerusalem) will symbolize our joint destiny. And down the road, some kind of Semitic Union, on the lines of the EU, may come into being.</p>
<p>     Already 22 years ago, Yasser Arafat told me of his belief in a &#8220;Benelux solution&#8221; &#8211; a close cooperation between three sovereignstates, Israel, Palestine and Jordan. He has repeated this many times since. I share this view with him.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-86812</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 16:41:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-86812</guid>
		<description>I think it is great that Dahlia advances this discussion, although I see her specific proposals as coming clearly from an Israeli negotiating perspective. 

What makes sense to me in terms of national rights (I am not Palestinian, but coming from a Palestinian-rights focused perspective) is that, whenever possible, those rights should be reciprocal. In other words, whatever one community expects or demands for itself, it must accept for the other. There are some cases where this may not work (the flag for instance, although the principle can still inform potential solutions). But it works on some of the biggest issues, among them right of return, and right of settlement. 

Not that it would be easily agreed to, but this principle does have the political and cognitive benefit of commonsense fairness. If we accept as the basis for binationalism the idea that Jews and Palestinians are both indigenous to the territory, then it follows logically that people of both groups should be able to live within it, wherever they choose. 

Perhaps my perspective should be more Machiavellian, but I believe that a settlement built as closely as possible around ideas of universal rights, will also be the most durable and fruitful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it is great that Dahlia advances this discussion, although I see her specific proposals as coming clearly from an Israeli negotiating perspective. </p>
<p>What makes sense to me in terms of national rights (I am not Palestinian, but coming from a Palestinian-rights focused perspective) is that, whenever possible, those rights should be reciprocal. In other words, whatever one community expects or demands for itself, it must accept for the other. There are some cases where this may not work (the flag for instance, although the principle can still inform potential solutions). But it works on some of the biggest issues, among them right of return, and right of settlement. </p>
<p>Not that it would be easily agreed to, but this principle does have the political and cognitive benefit of commonsense fairness. If we accept as the basis for binationalism the idea that Jews and Palestinians are both indigenous to the territory, then it follows logically that people of both groups should be able to live within it, wherever they choose. </p>
<p>Perhaps my perspective should be more Machiavellian, but I believe that a settlement built as closely as possible around ideas of universal rights, will also be the most durable and fruitful.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolf Plotkin</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-84381</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolf Plotkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-84381</guid>
		<description>No use beating about the bush - the single state between the sea and the Jordan was created de facto in June 1967 and has passed these 45 years rather peacefully, as compared with neighbouring Lebanon. I would not attach much importance to the de jure aspect of its existence and functioning - it is there, and it shows no signs of vanishing in the foreseeable future. After two decades of my sojourn here I have come to the conclusion that there is another reason for the protracted endurance of this state – the obvious resistance of the Israeli citizenry and government (in that order) to the creation of an adjoining Palestinian state is matched by the unwillingness of their counterparts on the other side of the Green line to depart from the single state. True, it has treated them abominably, but as a silver lining it also holds an increasingly tangible prospect of someday annexing the entire country and granting citizenship to all its inhabitants regardless of ethnic and religious differences. They are not fooled by the lip service of the Palestinian administration for a state of their own - nor should the Israelis.
There is thus no escape from the South African solution. As for the political and juridical modalities of the inevitable deal, let us leave them to our and their generations to come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No use beating about the bush &#8211; the single state between the sea and the Jordan was created de facto in June 1967 and has passed these 45 years rather peacefully, as compared with neighbouring Lebanon. I would not attach much importance to the de jure aspect of its existence and functioning &#8211; it is there, and it shows no signs of vanishing in the foreseeable future. After two decades of my sojourn here I have come to the conclusion that there is another reason for the protracted endurance of this state – the obvious resistance of the Israeli citizenry and government (in that order) to the creation of an adjoining Palestinian state is matched by the unwillingness of their counterparts on the other side of the Green line to depart from the single state. True, it has treated them abominably, but as a silver lining it also holds an increasingly tangible prospect of someday annexing the entire country and granting citizenship to all its inhabitants regardless of ethnic and religious differences. They are not fooled by the lip service of the Palestinian administration for a state of their own &#8211; nor should the Israelis.<br />
There is thus no escape from the South African solution. As for the political and juridical modalities of the inevitable deal, let us leave them to our and their generations to come.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolf Plotkin</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-84369</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolf Plotkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2012 20:08:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-84369</guid>
		<description>No use beating about the bush - the single state between the sea and the Jordan was created de facto in June 1967 and has passed these 45 years rather peacefully, as compared with neighbouring Lebanon. I would not attach much importance to the de jure aspect of its existence and functioning - it is there, and it shows no signs of vanishing in the foreseeable future. After two decades of my sojourn here I have come to the conclusion that there is another reason for the obvious resistance of the Israeli citizenry and government (in that order) to the creation of a Palestinian state beside us - and that is the unwillingness of their counterparts on the other side to to depart from the single state. True, it treats them abominably, but as a silver lining it also holds an increasingly realistic prospect of someday annexing the entire country and granting citizenship to all its inhabitants regardless of ethnic and religious differences. They are not fooled by the theatricals of the Palestinian administration - nor should the Israelis.
There is thus no escape from the South African solution. As for the political and juridical modalities of the inevitable deal, let us leave them to our and their generations to come.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No use beating about the bush &#8211; the single state between the sea and the Jordan was created de facto in June 1967 and has passed these 45 years rather peacefully, as compared with neighbouring Lebanon. I would not attach much importance to the de jure aspect of its existence and functioning &#8211; it is there, and it shows no signs of vanishing in the foreseeable future. After two decades of my sojourn here I have come to the conclusion that there is another reason for the obvious resistance of the Israeli citizenry and government (in that order) to the creation of a Palestinian state beside us &#8211; and that is the unwillingness of their counterparts on the other side to to depart from the single state. True, it treats them abominably, but as a silver lining it also holds an increasingly realistic prospect of someday annexing the entire country and granting citizenship to all its inhabitants regardless of ethnic and religious differences. They are not fooled by the theatricals of the Palestinian administration &#8211; nor should the Israelis.<br />
There is thus no escape from the South African solution. As for the political and juridical modalities of the inevitable deal, let us leave them to our and their generations to come.</p>
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		<title>By: Mihai-Robert Soran</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-83587</link>
		<dc:creator>Mihai-Robert Soran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2012 11:14:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-83587</guid>
		<description>To be honest, I couldn&#039;t discover one single new question, answer, idea, opinion, structure or principle.

I remember &quot;us&quot; people from the democratic, liberal left having started to discuss all the above already late 1977, early 1978 in Haifa, in Tel-Aviv, in Jerusalem ...

And I see almost no palpable change in the problems seen and solutions thought of since these 35 years ...
Regards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be honest, I couldn&#8217;t discover one single new question, answer, idea, opinion, structure or principle.</p>
<p>I remember &#8220;us&#8221; people from the democratic, liberal left having started to discuss all the above already late 1977, early 1978 in Haifa, in Tel-Aviv, in Jerusalem &#8230;</p>
<p>And I see almost no palpable change in the problems seen and solutions thought of since these 35 years &#8230;<br />
Regards.</p>
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		<title>By: YoMo</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-83327</link>
		<dc:creator>YoMo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 20:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-83327</guid>
		<description>Dahlia, I guess I was asking what do you feel has changed over the last 12 months, on the ground, qualitatively or quantitatively, that has changed you views on the feasibility of a two state outcome</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dahlia, I guess I was asking what do you feel has changed over the last 12 months, on the ground, qualitatively or quantitatively, that has changed you views on the feasibility of a two state outcome</p>
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		<title>By: The Trespasser</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-83237</link>
		<dc:creator>The Trespasser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 16:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-83237</guid>
		<description>&quot;At the moment, in terms of 1-state solutions, the only game in town is the right-wing vision of Israel from river to sea, with transfer / carving out of the Arab population to keep it down to something manageable around the 20% mark. Right-wingers do not care about any kind of reconciliation between the communities as long as they believe that this outcome is possible.&quot;

Quoted passage extremely well displays how little people outside Israel actually know about what &quot;right-wing&quot; Israelis desire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;At the moment, in terms of 1-state solutions, the only game in town is the right-wing vision of Israel from river to sea, with transfer / carving out of the Arab population to keep it down to something manageable around the 20% mark. Right-wingers do not care about any kind of reconciliation between the communities as long as they believe that this outcome is possible.&#8221;</p>
<p>Quoted passage extremely well displays how little people outside Israel actually know about what &#8220;right-wing&#8221; Israelis desire.</p>
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		<title>By: Dahlia Scheindlin</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-83118</link>
		<dc:creator>Dahlia Scheindlin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 13:32:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-83118</guid>
		<description>YoMo - I am surprised by your second question - that is exactly what I have tried to answer in the entire first segment of the piece. I have supported two states not only a year ago, but for most of my years of thinking about Israel. I would continue to support it if i thought it to be in any way realistic or achievable, as I still believe it is probably the better option. This isn&#039;t so much a matter of support as acknowledging realities on the ground - and you&#039;re right to point out that the changes have been taking place over more than the course of the last year, which is why some have responded that my comment here arrives quite late.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YoMo &#8211; I am surprised by your second question &#8211; that is exactly what I have tried to answer in the entire first segment of the piece. I have supported two states not only a year ago, but for most of my years of thinking about Israel. I would continue to support it if i thought it to be in any way realistic or achievable, as I still believe it is probably the better option. This isn&#8217;t so much a matter of support as acknowledging realities on the ground &#8211; and you&#8217;re right to point out that the changes have been taking place over more than the course of the last year, which is why some have responded that my comment here arrives quite late.</p>
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		<title>By: YoMo</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-83026</link>
		<dc:creator>YoMo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 08:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-83026</guid>
		<description>Dahlie, by the way, you endorsed two states a year ago- what is so different in 2012 to have wrought such a change in opinion?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dahlie, by the way, you endorsed two states a year ago- what is so different in 2012 to have wrought such a change in opinion?</p>
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		<title>By: YoMo</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/demystifying-one-state-acknowledging-facts/57411/comment-page-1/#comment-83023</link>
		<dc:creator>YoMo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Oct 2012 08:50:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=57411#comment-83023</guid>
		<description>Dahlia, the proposal you outline really seems functionally closer to a two state confederation than one state.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dahlia, the proposal you outline really seems functionally closer to a two state confederation than one state.</p>
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