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	<title>Comments on: Deliberations of a first-time non-Zionist voter</title>
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	<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/</link>
	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 19:08:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Adrian Benveniste</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-105263</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Benveniste</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 00:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-105263</guid>
		<description>I am truly flabbergasted at how much of what used to be called Jewish self-loathing is expressed in this blog post. The writer and those who agree seem comfortable with Jews when they light their cute Hanukkah candles and dance the hora, but can&#039;t deal with Jewish sovereignty. Yet, Israel is the most open society in the whole middle east for homosexuals, women, free thinkers, pork eaters, Christians, and even Arabs. It certainly is the only place that Jews can live openly and without anti-semitics fears...  fears that are now creeping into Europe and even America through leftist hatred of all things Jewish. Ask yourselves why.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am truly flabbergasted at how much of what used to be called Jewish self-loathing is expressed in this blog post. The writer and those who agree seem comfortable with Jews when they light their cute Hanukkah candles and dance the hora, but can&#8217;t deal with Jewish sovereignty. Yet, Israel is the most open society in the whole middle east for homosexuals, women, free thinkers, pork eaters, Christians, and even Arabs. It certainly is the only place that Jews can live openly and without anti-semitics fears&#8230;  fears that are now creeping into Europe and even America through leftist hatred of all things Jewish. Ask yourselves why.</p>
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		<title>By: Yaron</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104757</link>
		<dc:creator>Yaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 11:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104757</guid>
		<description>Basically, I think there is nothing wrong with Zionism. Longing for Zion, longing for return to a homeland, what can be wrong with that? In today&#039;s modern world where people want to be free to live anywhere they want, this should not be something bad. Only keeping Jews from that, does not exactly feel good.
But face it: some Zionism has gone bad. It should never have been used to allow for the deportation, persecution or discrimination of non-Jews.
The fact that Israel is the Jewish homeland should not mean it a &#039;Jewish-only&#039; land, and as we can see, it isn&#039;t. But it has a sharp edge.
On the other hand, the &#039;Zionism gone bad&#039; finds its mirror image in the other side which also persecutes, discrminates and deports, in an even more severe way. As a result, we see only countries without Jews around Israel.
Both sides are not only eachothers mirror image, their actions are also closely connected to one another. As a result we should conclude that giving up on discrimination, deportation and persecution is a two-way affair.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Basically, I think there is nothing wrong with Zionism. Longing for Zion, longing for return to a homeland, what can be wrong with that? In today&#8217;s modern world where people want to be free to live anywhere they want, this should not be something bad. Only keeping Jews from that, does not exactly feel good.<br />
But face it: some Zionism has gone bad. It should never have been used to allow for the deportation, persecution or discrimination of non-Jews.<br />
The fact that Israel is the Jewish homeland should not mean it a &#8216;Jewish-only&#8217; land, and as we can see, it isn&#8217;t. But it has a sharp edge.<br />
On the other hand, the &#8216;Zionism gone bad&#8217; finds its mirror image in the other side which also persecutes, discrminates and deports, in an even more severe way. As a result, we see only countries without Jews around Israel.<br />
Both sides are not only eachothers mirror image, their actions are also closely connected to one another. As a result we should conclude that giving up on discrimination, deportation and persecution is a two-way affair.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Pollock</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104349</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Pollock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:31:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104349</guid>
		<description>If you equate occupation with security while enhancing settler presence you will be faced with a population dislodged from civil, political, and what much of the world sees as human rights (such as being able to use your land).  What I am saying, not really to you, is that the inevitable transition to a binational state which this policy induces will rely in part on the Israeli constitution, and that free ingress, if absorbed through the Declaration of Independence, can preserve that.  But the document also demands equal protection of the law.

The settlers inflame matters, causing need for more &quot;security.&quot;  Remove them and occupy the Bank--this follows from your own defintition of security.

But this will not happen, for the issue is not security but absorption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you equate occupation with security while enhancing settler presence you will be faced with a population dislodged from civil, political, and what much of the world sees as human rights (such as being able to use your land).  What I am saying, not really to you, is that the inevitable transition to a binational state which this policy induces will rely in part on the Israeli constitution, and that free ingress, if absorbed through the Declaration of Independence, can preserve that.  But the document also demands equal protection of the law.</p>
<p>The settlers inflame matters, causing need for more &#8220;security.&#8221;  Remove them and occupy the Bank&#8211;this follows from your own defintition of security.</p>
<p>But this will not happen, for the issue is not security but absorption.</p>
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		<title>By: Arieh</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104312</link>
		<dc:creator>Arieh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 20:21:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104312</guid>
		<description>&quot;a) You don’t know what a ‘reactionary’ is.&quot;

I do know how it has come to be used. But the term also has a literal meaning. 

&quot;A reaction to something&quot; whatever the something is.

&quot;b) You do but think you can score some rhetorical points by using it as a far-fetched insult.&quot;

Yes.

&quot;c) Your perception of reality is warped by your own prejudices to the point of being incompatible with rational thought.&quot;

My prejudices? Oh and I suppose you don&#039;t have prejudices? 

At least I admit mine, do you admit yours?

&quot;“I can’t help but compare them to the Khmer Rouge (sorry but it is true).”
Speaks for c)&quot;

Whats wrong Toby? The comparison was perfectly valid. And I justified what I meant by it. I&#039;ll say it again:

You people here in +972 hate and detest the Israel that exists NOW. So you propose solutions that would destroy the Israel that exists today and your aim is to rebuild something that you think would be better.

That is exactly what the Khmer Rouge wanted to do to their world. The fact that it did not work out for them is besides the point. In fact, I think that what many here in +972 want is not likely to work out the way they imagine either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;a) You don’t know what a ‘reactionary’ is.&#8221;</p>
<p>I do know how it has come to be used. But the term also has a literal meaning. </p>
<p>&#8220;A reaction to something&#8221; whatever the something is.</p>
<p>&#8220;b) You do but think you can score some rhetorical points by using it as a far-fetched insult.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes.</p>
<p>&#8220;c) Your perception of reality is warped by your own prejudices to the point of being incompatible with rational thought.&#8221;</p>
<p>My prejudices? Oh and I suppose you don&#8217;t have prejudices? </p>
<p>At least I admit mine, do you admit yours?</p>
<p>&#8220;“I can’t help but compare them to the Khmer Rouge (sorry but it is true).”<br />
Speaks for c)&#8221;</p>
<p>Whats wrong Toby? The comparison was perfectly valid. And I justified what I meant by it. I&#8217;ll say it again:</p>
<p>You people here in +972 hate and detest the Israel that exists NOW. So you propose solutions that would destroy the Israel that exists today and your aim is to rebuild something that you think would be better.</p>
<p>That is exactly what the Khmer Rouge wanted to do to their world. The fact that it did not work out for them is besides the point. In fact, I think that what many here in +972 want is not likely to work out the way they imagine either.</p>
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		<title>By: The Trespasser</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104307</link>
		<dc:creator>The Trespasser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:34:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104307</guid>
		<description>&gt;... Slavo-Turkic population

Mwahahaha

&gt;The theft of Palestine by racist genocidal Zionist invaders

Wow. I smell Mondoweiss.

&gt;is probably the most cold-blooded act of genocide in history.

Yet another lie. Multiple lies on one short sentence to be exact. Neat.

&gt;All decent human beings must hold Zionists in absolute and total scorn.

On what legal basis exactly? Because some sick individuals think so? Whatever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&#8230; Slavo-Turkic population</p>
<p>Mwahahaha</p>
<p>&gt;The theft of Palestine by racist genocidal Zionist invaders</p>
<p>Wow. I smell Mondoweiss.</p>
<p>&gt;is probably the most cold-blooded act of genocide in history.</p>
<p>Yet another lie. Multiple lies on one short sentence to be exact. Neat.</p>
<p>&gt;All decent human beings must hold Zionists in absolute and total scorn.</p>
<p>On what legal basis exactly? Because some sick individuals think so? Whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: The Trespasser</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104306</link>
		<dc:creator>The Trespasser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:29:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104306</guid>
		<description>Since in every letter Jews claim that they need to BUY BUY BUY, everyone who claims that Jews intended to STEAL something is a liar.

Besides, until 1949 there was no law which would disallow any kind of &quot;settler&quot; activity.

Claiming that Jews did something illegal is yet another lie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since in every letter Jews claim that they need to BUY BUY BUY, everyone who claims that Jews intended to STEAL something is a liar.</p>
<p>Besides, until 1949 there was no law which would disallow any kind of &#8220;settler&#8221; activity.</p>
<p>Claiming that Jews did something illegal is yet another lie.</p>
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		<title>By: XYZ</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104303</link>
		<dc:creator>XYZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:12:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104303</guid>
		<description>Moderators-
Anything to say about the above?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moderators-<br />
Anything to say about the above?</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Affleck</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104302</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Affleck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 18:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104302</guid>
		<description>Ethnic Ashkenazim constitute a Slavo-Turkic population relatively recently converted to Judaism. Their only connection to Palestine is completely fictional and mythological.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iJN90t2gN6hxGiFQuBv-gYQE060w?docId=CNG.52483183e4e0f60d963361c17572c848.81

The theft of Palestine by racist genocidal Zionist invaders is probably the most cold-blooded act of genocide in history. All decent human beings must hold Zionists in absolute and total scorn.

No greater fraud has ever been committed in human history than Zionism.

Members of the Zionist settler-invader population that aspire to achieve to a higher evolutionary state than that of pond scum should  make efforts to leave the State of Israel immediately.

To prove bona fides such emigrants should demand the arrest of the both the Israeli and international Zionist leadership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ethnic Ashkenazim constitute a Slavo-Turkic population relatively recently converted to Judaism. Their only connection to Palestine is completely fictional and mythological.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iJN90t2gN6hxGiFQuBv-gYQE060w?docId=CNG.52483183e4e0f60d963361c17572c848.81" rel="nofollow">http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iJN90t2gN6hxGiFQuBv-gYQE060w?docId=CNG.52483183e4e0f60d963361c17572c848.81</a></p>
<p>The theft of Palestine by racist genocidal Zionist invaders is probably the most cold-blooded act of genocide in history. All decent human beings must hold Zionists in absolute and total scorn.</p>
<p>No greater fraud has ever been committed in human history than Zionism.</p>
<p>Members of the Zionist settler-invader population that aspire to achieve to a higher evolutionary state than that of pond scum should  make efforts to leave the State of Israel immediately.</p>
<p>To prove bona fides such emigrants should demand the arrest of the both the Israeli and international Zionist leadership.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Affleck</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104301</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan Affleck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 18:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104301</guid>
		<description>How does one know that a racist Jewish Zionist or a lackey of racist Jewish Zionists is lying? Just check whether he is breathing.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah#Settlement

Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote:

    But the major cause of tension and violence throughout the period 1882-1914 was not accidents, misunderstandings or the attitudes and behaviors of either side, but objective historical conditions and the conflicting interests and goals of the two populations. The Arabs sought instinctively to retain the Arab and Muslim character of the region and to maintain their position as its rightful inhabitants; the Zionists sought radically to change the status quo, buy as much land as possible, settle on it, and eventually turn an Arab-populated country into a Jewish homeland.

    For decades the Zionists tried to camouflage their real aspirations, for fear of angering the authorities and the Arabs. They were, however, certain of their aims and of the means needed to achieve them. Internal correspondence amongst the olim from the very beginning of the Zionist enterprise leaves little room for doubt.[10]

Morris provides excerpts from three letters written in 1882 by these first arrivals:

    Vladimir (Ze&#039;ev) Dubnow, one of the Biluim wrote to his brother, the historian Simon Dubnow, in October 1882: &quot;The ultimate goal ... is, in time, to take over the Land of Israel and to restore to the Jews the political independence they have been deprived of for these two thousand years .... The Jews will yet arise and, arms in hand (if need be), declare that they are the masters of their ancient homeland.&quot; (Dubnow himself shortly afterward returned to Russia.)[11]

    Ben-Yehuda, who settled in Jerusalem in September 1881, wrote in July 1882 to Peretz Smolenskin in Vienna: &quot;The thing we must do now is to become as strong as we can, to conquer the country, covertly, bit by bit ... We will not set up committees so that the Arabs will know what we are after, we shall act like silent spies, we shall buy, buy, buy.&quot;[12]

    In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michael Pines, who had arrived in Palestine in 1878, wrote to Rashi Pin, in Vilna: &quot;We have made it a rule not to say too much, except to those ... we trust ... the goal is to revive our nation on its land ... if only we succeed in increasing our numbers here until we are the majority [Emphasis in original] .... There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones.&quot;[13]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does one know that a racist Jewish Zionist or a lackey of racist Jewish Zionists is lying? Just check whether he is breathing.</p>
<p>From <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah#Settlement" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah#Settlement</a></p>
<p>Israeli historian Benny Morris wrote:</p>
<p>    But the major cause of tension and violence throughout the period 1882-1914 was not accidents, misunderstandings or the attitudes and behaviors of either side, but objective historical conditions and the conflicting interests and goals of the two populations. The Arabs sought instinctively to retain the Arab and Muslim character of the region and to maintain their position as its rightful inhabitants; the Zionists sought radically to change the status quo, buy as much land as possible, settle on it, and eventually turn an Arab-populated country into a Jewish homeland.</p>
<p>    For decades the Zionists tried to camouflage their real aspirations, for fear of angering the authorities and the Arabs. They were, however, certain of their aims and of the means needed to achieve them. Internal correspondence amongst the olim from the very beginning of the Zionist enterprise leaves little room for doubt.[10]</p>
<p>Morris provides excerpts from three letters written in 1882 by these first arrivals:</p>
<p>    Vladimir (Ze&#8217;ev) Dubnow, one of the Biluim wrote to his brother, the historian Simon Dubnow, in October 1882: &#8220;The ultimate goal &#8230; is, in time, to take over the Land of Israel and to restore to the Jews the political independence they have been deprived of for these two thousand years &#8230;. The Jews will yet arise and, arms in hand (if need be), declare that they are the masters of their ancient homeland.&#8221; (Dubnow himself shortly afterward returned to Russia.)[11]</p>
<p>    Ben-Yehuda, who settled in Jerusalem in September 1881, wrote in July 1882 to Peretz Smolenskin in Vienna: &#8220;The thing we must do now is to become as strong as we can, to conquer the country, covertly, bit by bit &#8230; We will not set up committees so that the Arabs will know what we are after, we shall act like silent spies, we shall buy, buy, buy.&#8221;[12]</p>
<p>    In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michael Pines, who had arrived in Palestine in 1878, wrote to Rashi Pin, in Vilna: &#8220;We have made it a rule not to say too much, except to those &#8230; we trust &#8230; the goal is to revive our nation on its land &#8230; if only we succeed in increasing our numbers here until we are the majority [Emphasis in original] &#8230;. There are now only five hundred [thousand] Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones.&#8221;[13]</p>
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		<title>By: judy abeles eliasov</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/deliberations-of-a-first-time-non-zionist-voter/64233/comment-page-1/#comment-104299</link>
		<dc:creator>judy abeles eliasov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 18:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=64233#comment-104299</guid>
		<description>&quot;praying for a miracle&quot;
I hope that the vote that you were thinking about giving to a Palestinian is praying for the same miracle.......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;praying for a miracle&#8221;<br />
I hope that the vote that you were thinking about giving to a Palestinian is praying for the same miracle&#8230;&#8230;.</p>
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