Lorry, Lorry, Hallelujah
Nakba Day got off to a great start with a terror attack in the middle of southern Tel Aviv. A truck driver smashed into everything in sight, his rampage went along a route longer than 2 kilometers. One person was killed, several badly injured.
Nowhere did I hear condemnations from Arab MKs or left-wingers (if there were – please point them out to me). The family and friends gave the usual “it must have been an accident” excuse. Please. Don’t insult our intelligence. A guy gets on a truck, on Nakba Day, “loses control” for 2 kilometers, and when he gets off he smashes a girl in the head with a traffic light while yelling “Alla hu-Akbar” – and you’re still not sure it’s a terror attack. No wonder the mainstream calls us “extremists”.
Mind the gap
Then the storming of borders started.
First they came over in the Golan. They actually climbed over the fence, and walked into Israel. Now, I know a lot of you aren’t going to like what I say here, but if you want to come in to a country, you do it through a border crossing. And if you can’t pass through a border crossing because you’re in a state of war with that particular country, you wait till there’s a peace agreement. But if you just can’t wait and feel like you have to come over, understand this: you’re a trespasser.
Not only that, if the sovereign state behind you, with army and police in check, allows you to cross that fence – then I will treat you as their emissary, acting on their behalf, and see it as an act of war. An act of aggression. The farthest thing from nonviolent demonstrations I can think of. When I think of nonviolent protest, I see the pics from Selma, picket signs, sitting on the ground and praying. That’s nonviolent. Use the word correctly please. You can be unarmed, yet you can still be violent, or commit a violent act. It’s not an act of civil disobedience. It’s aggression. Period.
Cross the fence – prepare to die. It’s as simple as that.
And I don’t care whether it’s moral or not. Is the Golan occupied territory? Yes. Should it be given back? Hell, for all I care they can give it back all the way to the Sea of Galilee for a peace accord. Is the fence the real border? I couldn’t care less. It’s a barrier. A barrier between me and an enemy country. A barrier between an enemy country and my family. My kids. All you need is for one of those many hundreds who passed that fence to be carrying explosives under their shirt, and you got yourself a terror attack.
Were they all unarmed? Are any of you willing to bet your life on that? I’m not willing to, and definitely not the life of my children.
So yeah, screw morality, and screw purple lines, cease fire lines or all the semantics. Cross the barrier into Israel “proper”, where my family, is without permission – I shoot. It’s not like these guys are crossing over from Canada into the States.
Heck, one of them got all the way to Jaffa. He was a nice one. Are we lucky? Are we sure all of them have left Israel? Are we sure all of them are innocent as this guy was, unarmed?
And I’m tired of all us lefties just being “fine” with Syrian armies and Lebanese armies just sitting back and doing nothing. You want to give Palestinians their due sovereignty? Than you demand other sovereign countries to keep their citizens in line. Otherwise it’s a military act of aggression.
As for what happened in Lebanon, apparently there were no border crossings there. Still, charging the fence is an act of aggression. And trust me, Hizballah was fine with it. And they are the rulers of the land, let there be no doubt about it.
Inshallah the Arab spring will take Assad and Nasrallah soon, and spare us all of their stupidity, matched only by Netanyahu’s. Maybe they’ll take him away, too.
Apartheid galore
So, you might ask: Ami, then you probably don’t mind the IDF reacting violently in Qalandiya? Actually, I do mind. Because that’s inside Israel. Those people are under our rule. I am their caretaker, and I have done nothing to take care of them for over 40 years, except brutally occupy them. Shooting at another people, inside your borders, is the epitome of apartheid.
Officer Bachar loses his cool
If anything shows the ingrained hatred of mainstream Israel towards its own Arab citizens, it’s the video of a high ranking police officer, Kobi Bachar, slapping an Arab woman for asking him why he was detaining protesters.
If there’s anything that shows the police disrespect for democracy, it’s officers in disguise as photojournalists in Qalandiya during the demonstrations (according to reliable source).
Low IQ
How low have the IDF’s intelligence scores been lately, eh? No idea where Shalit is; no idea the guys on the Gaza flotilla were violent; no idea Mubarak’s days were numbered; no idea about the Hamas-Fatah deal; and now this.
But hey, at least we know Iran’s got nukes, right?
Epilogue
Ba de ya – dancing in September.
May 21, 2011
8:35 am
Annie, seems like we agree on all points you detailed here – including the horrendous outcome, apart from the term
May 21, 2011
8:55 am
… that is, before your last comment
The site you refer to isn’t the one I found the claims.
Here’s yet another one that isn’t where I found (this one has more):
http://www.thejc.com/blogs/jose/the-palestinian-nakba-seen-arab-leaders
A very Jewish and therefore unreliable source… Maybe what you need is a physical paper clip, or reference from a Palestinian source. Sorry, I don’t have these.
I guess Abbas’ words (see pointer above) aren’t direct enough either…
-> but as you can’t refute Nusseibeh’s testimony (it’s on youtube, in case you don’t have access to the BBC records), I rather accept the veracity of these references: they become not only possible but actually plausible.
May 21, 2011
10:25 am
To summarize:
1. We agree that in some instances (none of us knows the extent), the Jewish forces encouraged the Arabs to flee.
I have references claiming that throughout the war, the official Jewish leadership called the Arabs to stay. Not consistent with the above, but we know that many things weren’t well coordinated.
2. We agree that Arabs’ propaganda created fear that resulted in people fleeing. Neither of us can tell the relative importance of #1 & #2.
I have references claiming that Arab broadcasts to that effect were numerous. You need to see proofs, which I obviously can’t provide.
In my opinion, the claim that there were absolutely no Arab calls to leave is simply not plausible: the BBC records some radio channels, sometimes, but certainly not all, all the time. It’s also ridiculous to claim that someone sat and listened to years’ worth of recordings.
Furthermore, we have testimony from a prominent Arab, responsible for creating the misinformation about the Dir Yassin tragedy – which you call massacre, acknowledging that his publication was bogus and that in hindsight was the cause of mass exodus (his words are actually stronger).
I’m sure we also agree that war is atrocious by nature, and most – if not all – national wars are about land.
.
So now back to the question of who should pay to fix the refugee problem…
May 21, 2011
10:50 am
max, i never made the call ‘there were absolutely no Arab calls to leave’, i simply do not believe there’s any credible evidence of some big radio address. my main point is that the primary reason they left was not a simple matter of ‘encouragement’ by jewish forces nor callings from arab neighbors. villages had been cleared prior to may 15th. massacres occurred (check Nachmani’s diary pt 5) prior to may 15th. you can give me quotes until you are blue in the face. there havde been so many lies and distortions about this period of history i have chosen to rely on my own interpretation of common sense and human instincts coupled w/mounds of evidence the zionists wanted the land without the inhabitants, which is still occurring. most people left because they feared for their lives, because of jewish terrorism.
common sense. you can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time but you can’t keep repeating the majority of palestinians left because of calls from neighboring arab countries and expect that myth to stick permanently. it’s not logical and is against basic human nature.
pay to fix the refugee problem? i don’t know. why don’t you give me a ballpark figure of what you think jews would accept to leave their homeland, we can start from there.
May 21, 2011
11:03 am
Max, if you cannot provide 1 single document that prove your statements, so they are worthless. “Throughout the war?” Please provide proves also about it. You are referring to mayor Levi in Haifa?…it’s quite easy to ask to somebody to remain when 7/10 of the total palestinain population had been already expelled…read pagg 65-68 of Finkelstein’s Image and Reality…you will perceive these “generous” offers in a different light. You should ackowledge one and for ever the sufferance that your/Jewish legitimate expectations brought to the PAlestinians. Untill that day you will live in a “morally incomplete state”.
May 21, 2011
11:21 am
“i reject the notion there’s a bottom line connecting israel’s debt to palestinians with jewish emigration from arab countries”
<i would urge you to read “What do Palestinians and Arab-Jews Have in Common?
Nationalism and Ethnicity Examined Through the Compensation Question” by Yehouda Shenhav."
-
Well, I've read it. He has done pretty thorough research into Israeli archives only. But even then when you read the whole thing you realize that those discussions -transfer of Jews, seizing of Jewish property or not, one Palestinian for one Jew – were discussed early on and are by no means a late phenomenon.
What Shenhav omitted, however – understandable, not his thesis – is the direct connection between the establishment of the State of Israel and the pogroms against Jews in Arab and Muslim countries.
Indeed, it is those countries such as Egypt that the Palestinians have asked to represent them and speak on their behalf at the UN that made the connection -even the threat of a massacre – as early as November 1947
Heykal Pasha an Egyptian delegate to the Political Committee of the U.N. General Assembly -November 14, 1947:
"The United Nations . . . should not lose sight of the fact that the proposed solution might endanger a million Jews living in the Moslem countries. Partition of Palestine might create in those countries an anti-Semitism even more difficult to root out than the anti-Semitism which the Allies were trying to eradicate in Germany. . . If the United Nations decides to partition Palestine, it might be responsible for the massacre of a large number of Jews."
"
A million Jews live in peace in Egypt [and other Muslim countries] and enjoy all rights of citizenship. They have no desire to emigrate to Palestine. However, if a Jewish State were established, nobody could prevent disorders. Riots would break out in Palestine, would spread through all the Arab states and might lead to a war between two races."
—-
U.N. General Assembly, Second Session, Official Records, Ad Hoc Committee on the Palestinian Question, Summary Records of Meetings, Lake Success, N.Y., Sept. 25-Nov. 15, 1947, p. 185.
May 21, 2011
11:42 am
I have posted something with relation to Yehuda Shenhav with reference to the connection made by the Arab side between Palestinian refugees and massacre of Jews from Arab countries but maybe it’ll pop up.
Meanwhile, it is interesting that we have raised the subject of comprehensive solution for refugees both palestinian and Jewish just hours before Netanyahu did at the White House in his meet with Obama.
Not that you would know that reading Haaretz. I saw it on Bataween’s site (jewishrefugees.blogspot) with a link to Israeli government site containing the full speeches.
Like it or not, it’s now officially on the table.here’s the quote:
”
The third reality is that the Palestinian refugee problem will have to be resolved in the context of a Palestinian state, but certainly not in the borders of Israel.
The Arab attack in 1948 on Israel resulted in two refugee problems – Palestinian refugee problem and Jewish refugees, roughly the same number, who were expelled from Arab lands. Now, tiny Israel absorbed the Jewish refugees, but the vast Arab world refused to absorb the Palestinian refugees. Now, 63 years later, the Palestinians come to us and they say to Israel, accept the grandchildren, really, and the great grandchildren of these refugees, thereby wiping out Israel’s future as a Jewish state.
So it’s not going to happen. Everybody knows it’s not going to happen. And I think it’s time to tell the Palestinians forthrightly it’s not going to happen. The Palestinian refugee problem has to be resolved. It can be resolved, and it will be resolved if the Palestinians choose to do so in a Palestinian state. So that’s a real possibility. But it’s not going to be resolved within the Jewish state.
The President and I discussed all these issues and I think we may have differences here and there, but I think there’s an overall direction that we wish to work together to pursue a real, genuine peace between Israel and its Palestinian neighbors; a peace that is defensible”
http://jewishrefugees.blogspot.com/2011/05/obama-still-hasnt-remembered-me.html
Both full speeches are on IFM website http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speeches+by+Israeli+leaders/2011/President_Obama_PM_Netanyahu_after_meeting_20-May-2011.htm
May 21, 2011
12:46 pm
@Annie “i never made the call ‘there were absolutely no Arab calls to leave’, i simply do not believe there’s any credible evidence of some big radio address” – you didn’t, Khalid did. And no one claimed there was a big radio address so we agree on this.
What’s the importance of May 15 in this discussion? The war started a day after the UN declaration, almost half a year earlier
.
@1single document, I propose that you read more than 2 lines of the discussion
May 21, 2011
1:33 pm
Link to the quotes of Heykal Pasha above:
http://www.meforum.org/263/why-jews-fled-the-arab-countries
I recommend reading the whole document although it is very old and more info is available today. The references are impeccable I’ve doubled checked a few myself.
May 21, 2011
1:44 pm
Max,
“What’s the importance of May 15 in this discussion?” As you should know, the vast majority of the expulsions took place after May 15. So it matters.
As you usually do with the other members of this site, you skip the point: “I have references claiming that throughout the war, the official Jewish leadership called the Arabs to stay. Not consistent with the above, but we know that many things weren’t well coordinated.” Which references do you have?
“In my opinion, the claim that there were absolutely no Arab calls to leave is simply not plausible: the BBC records some radio channels, sometimes, but certainly not all, all the time. It’s also ridiculous to claim that someone sat and listened to years’ worth of recordings”. Your opinion is irrelevant if it is no based on proves.
May 21, 2011
2:44 pm
“the vast majority of the expulsions took place after May 15″
Funny that you say that, as the common Palestinian claim is the opposite.
But why does it matter? The war started much earlier
“Which references do you have?” Look up those I gave. In general, try to read beyond what fits your preconception
“Your opinion is irrelevant” – indeed, if you think that the claims are plausible then my opinion is irrelevant. It’s up to you whether or not you want to apply common sense.
May 21, 2011
3:02 pm
@1singledocument
You are not seriously quoting Norman Finkelstein here?
May 21, 2011
8:42 pm
“even then when you read the whole thing you realize that those discussions -transfer of Jews, seizing of Jewish property or not, one Palestinian for one Jew – were discussed early on and are by no means a late phenomenon.”
sylvia, perhaps you are not hearing me. as i mentioned in my May 20, 2011 8:52 pm post:
“it won’t wash in my book. palestinians were not responsible for any expulsions. your claim is nothing new, there has been a continued effort by israel to wash it’s hands of the palestinian debt thru conflation of some connection to jewish expulsion from arab countries (which took place after israel had already incurred that massive debt”
i am well aware ‘those discussions’ started early on by zionists, that was my point.
“it is interesting that we have raised the subject of comprehensive solution for refugees both palestinian and Jewish just hours before Netanyahu did at the White House in his meet with Obama.”
hello, there’s no ‘we’, i had no part is raising this issue and there’s nothing interesting about it whatsoever. it’s a constant zionist ploy to pander off their debt conflating it with some other debt that has nothing to do with palestinians. nothing at all. it’s like listening to a broken record.
“Like it or not, it’s now officially on the table”
i think my link clearly demonstrated israel ‘officially’ out it on the table decades ago. maybe he should go discuss it w/maliki and the iraqis, or does israel think the US has nothing better to do than run around solving israel’s every whim? discuss it with someone else if you wish but i’m not engaging you in your diversion.
ot, isn’t it interesting the american libraries in both alexandria and baghdad were bombed? another day perhaps.
May 21, 2011
8:52 pm
that was meant to read “i think my link clearly demonstrated israel ‘officially’ put it on the table decades ago.”
and it reeks of conniving bs now as much as it did then.
May 21, 2011
9:09 pm
““Which references do you have?” Look up those I gave.”
haha. your references are all claims, nothing definitive..like evidence. searching for them leads to more rightwing zio sites, never the source itself.
it’s been a slice, i’m out of here.
May 22, 2011
12:12 am
sure, annie, your claims are better than mine. nusseibeh’s is just a claim.
scholarly integrity…
May 22, 2011
12:50 am
@Ami Kaufman re: Baruch Goldstein
First gut impression? Monster. Just as my impression of the terrorists from 9-11 who so intimately and knowingly SAW, face to face, those they were to carry with them to the murder of even more. Same as I see suicide bombers (mature enough and having sufficient cult-free self-determination to not be mere puppets, who walk up to a group, board a bus, enter an establishment – and murder the human beings about them.
I felt the same way, I must admit, about the American airline’s (forget which carrier) a couple of decades ago who flew his aircraft full of innocent passengers into the cold Atlantic, all the while repeating “Alla hu-Akbar”. I thought – a Terrorist. And despite the “official” issued determination that it had nothing to do with a suicidal intent, I wondered if it had more to do with calming the fears of potential paying passengers.. No organization ever spoke up to claim “ownership” of the act, but where does that put us? We also never were given evidence from family, friends or colleagues regarding extenuating circumstances in his life that might have figured in. The one thing we know is that neither he nor any other crew member communicated with air control in the normal manner which occurs in the instance of flight emergencies.
So terrorists can be a person or small group of persons (Oklahoma City truck fertilizer bombing of the Federal Bldg, filled with a nursery of infants and small ones). Or terrorists can be agents trained, outfitted and overseen by a larger funded organization.
I see Baruch Goldstein as a terrorist of the type who go into the situation knowing they will die – oftentimes in a narcissistic glow of wishing their lives to have vast meaning beyond their deaths. Outside of his residing on the fringe of a bell-curve personality range, I do not see him as mentally disturbed. He showed a long-term consistency in beliefs and behaviors while achieving a demanding career and operating within the parameters of normal societal expectations.
Baruch Goldstein would otherwise have been a most ordinary man in most respects, had he not decided to act upon his projections (bad and evil all exists outside myself and those who I consider “like myself”)- in THEM) and narcissistic needs to be “more” – to give his life exceptional meaning and become a hero. Which has been seen – and correctly dampered by the government.
In comparison of another physician, Muslim in the US Army, who had limited online contact with an expatriate (whom Obama has issued a death warrant upon).. This man had a long history, documented in his official file, of disturbed behavior. His residence resembled that of the first week’s furnishings of a man thrown out by his wife rather than of a highly paid high-ranking officer (they PAY for all packing and moving expenses). He showed a pattern of increasing isolation and dysfunction… and is still held at an Army psychiatric facility since he is still unable to understand and cooperate in his own defense.
The red-neck patriotic Americans (?) who killed so many in Kansas City, while operating in a small isolated group of three, had the full sane comprehension of the consequences of what they set out to do and wished desperately to not be caught. They didn’t want to go down in history as heroes – but they were terrorists as much as those who leave explosives, be they IEDs or trucks at embassies, police or military installations.
Terrorism is a complicated many-faceted complex of striking fear into the hearts and lives of many. And terrorists are similarly varied in their motivations and projected specific personal rewards.
The enraged man who drove down the sidewalk (in Las Vegas if I recall correctly) and the similarly angry man who drove wildly down those at a weekend festival’s arts and crafts grounds – these men terrorized both victims and onlookers. The horrified and baffled those who heard about the incidents. But they were not terrorists.
Some young highly-manipulated young teens and similarly intellectually compromised who are used by terrorists to be suicide bombers are similarly terrorists, especially given that we are given to know that family members often know ahead of time what will happen.
Terrorism is terrible. For endless years, it seemed reports of such acts in the streets of Israel were daily happenings and I cringed in horror and my heart ached. When rockets flew in from the north towards my friend’s home city, I feared daily that the news would worsen.
I am not not a Palestinian bleeding heart – but I do recognize that a minority of Jews governing a disenfranchized ever-enlarging majority of Arabs is untenable. I want peace for all, the blood-letting to be as little and brief as possible, and for Israel to realize that destruction is not the only alternative to the status quo.
Was that a decent answer? Or did I miss your aim in questioning?
May 22, 2011
1:00 am
These rantings are not very coherent. But I get the general feeling that the subject doesn’t please you? Well, too bad.
May 22, 2011
2:03 am
the columbine massacre isn’t referenced as a terrorist attack. maybe if dylan had been muslim instead of jewish….a suicide attack too.
sometimes people just snap or go crazy. sometimes societies go crazy. what about institutionalized terrorism? where does it stop?
that reminds me of an article i read “Knesset to discuss ‘slandering of Russians’ following Oshrenko murder “.(massacre?) do you think the knesset will discuss slandering of palestinians after the itmar massacre? me neither, they were terrorists. or not.
May 22, 2011
2:45 am
@Ami and all others here
I have never engaged in blog responses, but just “had to” this time. I don’t read all the other posts because these persons all seem to already know one another – plus they are much more informed about many issues than I am nor am I likely to become. Contention and argument distress me terribly (ptsd), so I try, in turn, to not be contentious or argumentative. My intention is never to insult or demean, merely to state my pov. If someone is upset or angry, please do not take offense if I do not respond as I would then have to take yet another valium.
I just am so happy that I found 972mag – it is wonderful to find a world of people who share so many of my ideas and ways of thinking.
May 22, 2011
4:49 am
@Sarah:
Thanks a lot for your contribution and your attitude. Some commenters attack each other meanly on this site, so please be prepared. Some people also twist and turn and change subjects and make everything ridiculous. Some are not here to try to understand the situation and each other, they are here to defend one or another ideological position. It doesn’t make sense to argue with them, because they wouldn’t allow themselves even a thread of doubt.
May 22, 2011
6:14 am
@Ami,
Let me start by condemning all past, present and future terrorist attacks anywhere in the world.
You can choose to view these border crossings as violent acts of war that should be dealt with accordingly. You can also see this as an expression of these people’s yearning for freedom, for opportunity to return to their ancestral villages, to be reunited with their families.
You say: “Cross the fence – prepare to die.” I guess most of them realized what kind of risk they subjected themselves to and were prepared to die. And yes, they are supported in their yearning by the corrupt regimes of Syria and Iran, and much less so by the corrupt regimes in Jordan, Saudi Arabia and until recently Egypt. Does this make their yearnings and demands illegitimate?
“…you wait till there’s a peace agreement. But if you just can’t wait and feel like you have to come over, understand this: you’re a trespasser. “ As things stand now, they’ll probably have to wait another 60 years. I guess they consider Palestine their own country as much as you do. They probably don’t see this as trespassing, but as returning home.
You may like it or not, but the Palestinians will probably adopt this tactic of unarmed resistance and border crossings (see this interesting report from Democracy Now: http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/17/a_new_non_violent_resistance_movement). Unlike Israel, these refugees cannot choose to negotiate (or not negotiate) from a position of power. They don’t have much to lose except their lives. This doesn’t promise anything good for the Israeli government and will help further sway international public opinion against occupation and towards right of return. I can imagine that there will come a time that these people will be considered heroes both within and outside Israel, both by Jews and the rest of the world, the way Martin Luther King and Gandhi are highly regarded in the USA, Britain and all over the world.
I perfectly understand your feelings and your fear that something may happen to your family and children. Every parent has to leave with the fear for their kids. There are two potential avenues of ridding oneself from this fear. One is to segregate oneself into a sort of gated community, put all people who may become potential criminals into prison and hope that nothing will happen to your kids. Needless to say, this will probably aggravate one’s fears even further. Another approach is to reach out, build trust and understanding with one’s neighbors and community. This is also pretty scary, difficult to do, and does not guarantee than nothing will happen to your kids. But, from my experience, this can be a very liberating, humbling, deeply human experience. It provides meaning and courage and alleviates fears.
May 22, 2011
7:05 am
Leonid – I think Ami is referring to the rampage on a Tel Aviv road on the same day, by someone who is already here and used the truck/lorry he was entrusted with in very much the same way Mohammed Ata and his accomplices have used a plane on 9/11.
May 23, 2011
12:56 am
Sylvia: I’m not sure what you want to say. In the first line of my comment I condemned all terrorist acts, including the one in Tel Aviv. The rest of my comment is about the border crossings in reply to Ami’s post.