Comments on: Condemnation of Kamm post-sentencing reflects country’s mood http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Fri, 24 May 2013 10:30:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Arpad Toldi http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28772 Arpad Toldi Tue, 01 Nov 2011 11:39:43 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28772 The situation sounds worse than whats going on in Syria. Mya, please get out while the doors are still open. I dont want you to get trapped in ziostan. The zionists are silencing opposition like the Burmese and we nned to keep hearing your brave voices The situation sounds worse than whats going on in Syria. Mya, please get out while the doors are still open. I dont want you to get trapped in ziostan. The zionists are silencing opposition like the Burmese and we nned to keep hearing your brave voices

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28747 Greg Pollock Tue, 01 Nov 2011 06:54:44 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28747 I was not saying that the documents do not reveal a violation of High Court rulings; I was saying that I know not. If there was no violation, then the logic I presented of tainted hands would have no foothold. I suspect there is a violation, but that is no more than a hunch. I am not Israeli and know nothing of what was released. . I am not interested in accusing Israel of being fascist. There is too much name calling as it is; but if the IDF can with impunity ignore Court rulings, the rule of law can not be dissipate. Note what Borg, above, did. S/he took my reference to fascism to warrent a spurious reference to Iran. My view is that Israel must decide if it want the rule of law. If it does, immunity to the IDF is a mistake. But for the Court to take this stance would create a political earthquake. . I think there are probably three classes of Justices on the Court: those who would immunize the IDF; those who would chance a stand as outlined above; and those afraid to make a stand. As I said above, the US Supreme Court was able to take stands empowering the Court with limited scope in a time, the 1800's, when actions played out more slowly. Frankly, I fear Israel will continue its trend against the rule of law. Cases involving Arab Israeli citizens may have more traction than the release of IDF documents immediately labelled treasonous. I was not saying that the documents do not reveal a violation of High Court rulings; I was saying that I know not. If there was no violation, then the logic I presented of tainted hands would have no foothold. I suspect there is a violation, but that is no more than a hunch. I am not Israeli and know nothing of what was released.
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I am not interested in accusing Israel of being fascist. There is too much name calling as it is; but if the IDF can with impunity ignore Court rulings, the rule of law can not be dissipate. Note what Borg, above, did. S/he took my reference to fascism to warrent a spurious reference to Iran. My view is that Israel must decide if it want the rule of law. If it does, immunity to the IDF is a mistake. But for the Court to take this stance would create a political earthquake.
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I think there are probably three classes of Justices on the Court: those who would immunize the IDF; those who would chance a stand as outlined above; and those afraid to make a stand. As I said above, the US Supreme Court was able to take stands empowering the Court with limited scope in a time, the 1800′s, when actions played out more slowly. Frankly, I fear Israel will continue its trend against the rule of law. Cases involving Arab Israeli citizens may have more traction than the release of IDF documents immediately labelled treasonous.

]]> By: Warren Metzler http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28702 Warren Metzler Mon, 31 Oct 2011 21:24:46 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28702 I am having trouble accepting Greg's presentation that the documents don't reveal a direct violation of a Supreme Court ruling. If that is true, what would be the basis for Glau writing a report that claimed that was so? Where is the story if that is not so???? But, the main point I want to make is this story is an exact siamese twin for our (the US) Pentagon Papers and Wikileaks; both of which revealed far more nefarious actions than Glau' report. If most Israeli's see this degree of transparency as treasonous, then losing the rule of law is not the worst of your problems. You have a far greater problem, which is far more prone to move to fascism (Greg Pollack's concern): a total lack of a moral code by which to act. And if that is present, which I claim the calls of treason indicate is already present, it is now perfectly understandable how most Israeli's laud and support what most of us in the world see as significantly immoral actions: Cast Lead, continued suppression of most Palestinians, blanketing most of South Lebanon with anti-personnel mines and destroying much of south Beriut in 2006, etc. I am having trouble accepting Greg’s presentation that the documents don’t reveal a direct violation of a Supreme Court ruling. If that is true, what would be the basis for Glau writing a report that claimed that was so? Where is the story if that is not so????

But, the main point I want to make is this story is an exact siamese twin for our (the US) Pentagon Papers and Wikileaks; both of which revealed far more nefarious actions than Glau’ report. If most Israeli’s see this degree of transparency as treasonous, then losing the rule of law is not the worst of your problems. You have a far greater problem, which is far more prone to move to fascism (Greg Pollack’s concern): a total lack of a moral code by which to act.

And if that is present, which I claim the calls of treason indicate is already present, it is now perfectly understandable how most Israeli’s laud and support what most of us in the world see as significantly immoral actions: Cast Lead, continued suppression of most Palestinians, blanketing most of South Lebanon with anti-personnel mines and destroying much of south Beriut in 2006, etc.

]]> By: AYLA http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28638 AYLA Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:56:21 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28638 @Greg--thanks. What about the agreement the Shin Bet made with Haaretz, and then broke? Not law, just ethics? what about the implications of this behavior (and support for it) on Israel's society? Amen to the court making a brave, confrontational ruling... @Greg–thanks. What about the agreement the Shin Bet made with Haaretz, and then broke? Not law, just ethics? what about the implications of this behavior (and support for it) on Israel’s society? Amen to the court making a brave, confrontational ruling…

]]> By: Borg http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28628 Borg Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:36:33 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28628 Given the recent trade for Gilad Shalit, I would propose trading Anat Kamm for Ron Arad and Yehuda Baumel with the Iranians. Iranian democracy would be a step up for Anat compared with Israeli fascism Given the recent trade for Gilad Shalit, I would propose trading Anat Kamm for Ron Arad and Yehuda Baumel with the Iranians. Iranian democracy would be a step up for Anat compared with Israeli fascism

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28605 Greg Pollock Mon, 31 Oct 2011 07:06:01 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28605 Addendum: Y, on the Dimi Reader thread, doubts that the leaked documents reveal IDF violations of Court Order. If so, then, as he says, she has no defense. I am not certain, though, in the current legal climate of known violations of Court orders elsewhere (see Mya G.'s links in her piece, above) that a defense would risk that defense. I was saying that the High Court, upon appeal of the case to them, could evoke the doctrine of tainted hands on their own. . In any case, Kamm's sentencing and a direct suit against the IDF would take different trajectories; for all I know the latter case would be pushed to the High Court immediately, if heard at all, with Kamm's sentencing now before a yet more angry judge. . Again, if the documents do indeed show no violation of the law (it really isn't too surprising to see the Attorney General saying so), she has no defense. The real question, in my view, is whether the High Court would want to chance looking. Addendum:
Y, on the Dimi Reader thread, doubts that the leaked documents reveal IDF violations of Court Order. If so, then, as he says, she has no defense. I am not certain, though, in the current legal climate of known violations of Court orders elsewhere (see Mya G.’s links in her piece, above) that a defense would risk that defense. I was saying that the High Court, upon appeal of the case to them, could evoke the doctrine of tainted hands on their own.
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In any case, Kamm’s sentencing and a direct suit against the IDF would take different trajectories; for all I know the latter case would be pushed to the High Court immediately, if heard at all, with Kamm’s sentencing now before a yet more angry judge.
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Again, if the documents do indeed show no violation of the law (it really isn’t too surprising to see the Attorney General saying so), she has no defense. The real question, in my view, is whether the High Court would want to chance looking.

]]> By: Greg Pollock http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28602 Greg Pollock Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:39:40 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28602 The IDF does partly run by its own rules. The High Court knows this, everyone I guess does, has remarked occasionally, even using contempt charges, but with little success. The IDF has an institutional memory of the suicide bombing war of 2000-4 (or so) and is not going to let such a campaign happen again. . Someone has to decide the scope of law. At present the IDF has a nullifying power. The Court could act strongly against this but either somewhat agrees with the IDF's stance as appled, or is fearful of the constitutional consequences of a strong stance. For example, the Court could handle the Kamm case this way: since the documents Kamm revealed clearly show the IDF violating High Court orders, the State could be denied prosecution on the doctrine of tainted hands. That is, an agent making a legal charge (here, the prosecutor) cannot present evidence to which the agent's hands are tainted. Since the documents show the State in willful violation of Court orders, the State's hands are tainted. The Court can then refuse to hear the case as presented by the State, releasing Kamm for lack of untained, legal evidence. Note that if the documents HAD NOT shown the willful violation of law the Court would hear the case. IDF personale are not given a blanket immunity for squealing; all the IDF has to do to protect itself is follow the law! In this stance, the Court is not inherently "leftist." It says, "obey the law before you come to us." . But this stance, taken to affirm the rule of law, would create a popular backlash, perhaps so intense as to induce Knesset legislation to alter the review scope of the Court or its composition. . As I have preached elsewhere on this site, it seems that the Court will either become secondary to the IDF (I'm sorry to say a sign of Fascism), or the Court will eventually make a brave confrontational ruling (such as I suggest), then assert your Declaration of Independence to be a constitutional document and base decisions on its language, thereby protecting itself, somewhat, from Knesset control. . I believe this tension as to the rule of law to be the most significant long term crisis of Israel, with consequences beyond the unending security war. In effect, Israel as been for probably more than a decade in a slow motion constitutional crisis. The same happened in the pre-civil war US in the early to mid 1800's, but at a time when the consequences of Court decision and violation of Court rulings played out more slowly, affecting fewer people along the way. The US had the luxury of evolving in slower days, with less immediate danger. Israel has a much harder task, and I worry that the rule of law will not prevail. The IDF does partly run by its own rules. The High Court knows this, everyone I guess does, has remarked occasionally, even using contempt charges, but with little success. The IDF has an institutional memory of the suicide bombing war of 2000-4 (or so) and is not going to let such a campaign happen again.
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Someone has to decide the scope of law. At present the IDF has a nullifying power. The Court could act strongly against this but either somewhat agrees with the IDF’s stance as appled, or is fearful of the constitutional consequences of a strong stance. For example, the Court could handle the Kamm case this way: since the documents Kamm revealed clearly show the IDF violating High Court orders, the State could be denied prosecution on the doctrine of tainted hands. That is, an agent making a legal charge (here, the prosecutor) cannot present evidence to which the agent’s hands are tainted. Since the documents show the State in willful violation of Court orders, the State’s hands are tainted. The Court can then refuse to hear the case as presented by the State, releasing Kamm for lack of untained, legal evidence. Note that if the documents HAD NOT shown the willful violation of law the Court would hear the case. IDF personale are not given a blanket immunity for squealing; all the IDF has to do to protect itself is follow the law! In this stance, the Court is not inherently “leftist.” It says, “obey the law before you come to us.”
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But this stance, taken to affirm the rule of law, would create a popular backlash, perhaps so intense as to induce Knesset legislation to alter the review scope of the Court or its composition.
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As I have preached elsewhere on this site, it seems that the Court will either become secondary to the IDF (I’m sorry to say a sign of Fascism), or the Court will eventually make a brave confrontational ruling (such as I suggest), then assert your Declaration of Independence to be a constitutional document and base decisions on its language, thereby protecting itself, somewhat, from Knesset control.
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I believe this tension as to the rule of law to be the most significant long term crisis of Israel, with consequences beyond the unending security war. In effect, Israel as been for probably more than a decade in a slow motion constitutional crisis. The same happened in the pre-civil war US in the early to mid 1800′s, but at a time when the consequences of Court decision and violation of Court rulings played out more slowly, affecting fewer people along the way. The US had the luxury of evolving in slower days, with less immediate danger. Israel has a much harder task, and I worry that the rule of law will not prevail.

]]> By: Nite Owl http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28574 Nite Owl Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:05:18 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28574 The most moral army in the world is involved in extrajudicial assassinations, mass murder using illegal armaments and using children as human shields among other crimes against humanity. Kinda make one wonder what all the immoral armies are up to doesn't it? The most moral army in the world is involved in extrajudicial assassinations, mass murder using illegal armaments and using children as human shields among other crimes against humanity. Kinda make one wonder what all the immoral armies are up to doesn’t it?

]]> By: Philos http://972mag.com/condemnation-of-anat-kamm-in-aftermath-of-sentence-reflects-the-mood-of-the-country/26736/comment-page-1/#comment-28571 Philos Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:02:05 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=26736#comment-28571 Mya, I made your point right at the beginning that the real issue is the fact the that IDF deliberately disobeyed the law and conspired to cover it up. However, I was told to shut the f*** up by most people, including some of my own family. So in many respects the ability to ask these kinds of questions publicly has disappeared unless you engage in some treasonous act by joining an NGO (as I have done) where you can meet some like minded people. My prognosis is that should the goose step continue apace jail will also be a place where a sane person will meet like minded people. Mya, I made your point right at the beginning that the real issue is the fact the that IDF deliberately disobeyed the law and conspired to cover it up. However, I was told to shut the f*** up by most people, including some of my own family. So in many respects the ability to ask these kinds of questions publicly has disappeared unless you engage in some treasonous act by joining an NGO (as I have done) where you can meet some like minded people. My prognosis is that should the goose step continue apace jail will also be a place where a sane person will meet like minded people.

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