21 comments for ”Cairo in Ramallah: A disaster scenario?“

    
  1. First off, there is this quote:
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    The popular uprisings and ensuing overthrow of dictators in Tunisia and Egypt were about self-determination (not nationalistic), ending violent oppression and demands for personal, political and economic freedoms
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    I realize that the Left/Progressive commentators are pushing the line that these uprisings are not “nationalistic” or “relgiously”-based. However, I am not convinced of this. We have seen the pictures of Mubarak with a Star of David imposed on his face. We have heard stories of foreigners who fled Egypt for their lives when a mob accused them of being “Zionist agents”

    http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=208242

    In any event, any Palestinian mass march against the IDF would certainly be “nationalistically” based.

    The important factor that is not mentioned in this column is the fact that there are over 300,000 Israeli civilians living in the West Bank and another 200,000 in eastern Jerusalem. Should their be a mass march on the settlemetns, the IDF can not simply stand by and let the mob into these areas. The IDF is not simply a force to preserve a ruling regimes power as is the case of the Egyptian army facing the Egyptian protestors, it provides security for a civilian population.

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  5. Stella, an Israeli living in Israel is by definition in his or her true homeland.

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  7. Ben Israel – the IDF’s mandate is to defend *Israel*, not necessarily the settlers. I for one was extremely annoyed with ‘operational duty’ which entailed protecting settlements. Israel does not have the resources to use the army to hold (ie ‘occupy’) territories.

    One could say that the Palestinians have already had more than one uprising against authority – what were the Intifada after all? They are well aware of what it got them, and what it did not. That might explain some of the relative reluctance to rise up yet again.

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  9. Ben Israel:
    It does not say that the movements lacked nationalism, only that they were/are not motivated by national self determination. The Egyptian, Tunisian and Algerian nations long ago achieved national self determination. They are already nation-states who are fighting for freer societies.
    You rightly mention that the 500,000 settlers are not mentioned in the article. You are also correct in saying that the IDF would not stand by in such a situation. However, it’s more likely that they would evacuate the settlements than make some sort of Matsada-type stand to protect them.Regarding your assertion that the IDF is different from the Egyptian army in that it exists to protect the people as opposed to the regime, however, is a ridiculous revisionist and fantastical reading of week-old history. The Egyptian army did not protect the regime, in fact, it was most likely responsible for removing it. Furthermore, the IDF’s plays a dual role vis-a-vis the Palestinians. While its primary stated mission is to protect the Israeli people, it is also charged with upholding the occupation regime. While civil society and the government in Israel proper could easily survive without the army during peace time, the occupation and settlement enterprise wouldn’t last one day without it.

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  11. Zvi-
    Interestingly enough, it was Rabin who said exactly what you pointed out….that it was not his responsibility to defend the Jews living in the settlemens. He said something like “they are only 3% of the population, I can’t waste time worrying about them”. The fact that they were living in settlements that the government set up and even encouraged them to live in and that they paid taxes for the elemental right to their gov’t entitling them to security like all other citizens received for them apparently didn’t mean much to Rabin. I recall that it was reported in the media that a lady sent Rabin a letter in the wake of this statement and asked that since the IDF would not protect the people living there, then maybe they should set up their own armed militia for self-defense. Rabin then hurriedly backtracked and said, yes, the gov’t WOULD fulfill its obligation to protect all its citizens. “Israel” after all, is its people.

    Michael-
    Of course you are right about the role the Egyptian army was playing. The regime did expect the forces to protect them, but obviously the army high command didn’t want to or didn’t feel they could have the troops do that, but, as I said, the IDF is in a totally different situation facing the Palestinians.
    Your statement that Israel could exist without the IDF in peacetime is, of course, rather meaningless, because if Israel ever let its guard down, it would be overrun by the surrounding Arab states in no time, since none of them really accept Israel’s existence, as they all make clear in their internal propaganda.

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  15. You “acquire” a homeland by being born and raised there, or choosing to dwell there. There is nothing magical about the Palestinian connection to Palestine, or the Jewish connection to Israel. These are all historical artifacts.

    Being born and raised in Israel isn’t “illegitimate means” of finding that to be your home. No-one is illegal. Actions can be right or wrong, legal or illegal, not people.

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  17. Stella, I do not live in the West Bank. I live in the State of Israel – together with a few million people who were born in Israel to parents and grandparents who were born in Israel. Some of them are Jews and some of them are not. Some of the Jews are of European descent, and more than half are of Middle Eastern descent – from North Africa, Yemen, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon.

    As Klil points out, there is nothing magical about a connection to a place. It is about *how* you live in a place – not where you live.

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  19. “Stella,” you claim to be Israeli, why don’t you start the Great Yaridah?

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  23. So, I repeat, if you really are an Israeli citizen, why don’t you go back to presumably Germany. I can’t believe your comments aren’t being deleted, just like “Martin Sandberger”‘s.

    And if Algeria is so important to you, why don’t you attack the French themselves, and their hypocrisy, for being so anti-Israel these days, when their own appalling colonial endeavours only ended 49 years ago? Oh right, because you couldn’t care less about the Pals, you just hate Jews.

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  28. I didn’t not know of Stella Goldschlag. I thought +972 had a new policy on comments relating to the Nazis.

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  32. I think it is unfortunate the comment section of this important article is being highjacked by this perverse poster. I advocate deleting those comments.

    Thank you for the article Michael Omer-Man.

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  34. According to Stella: “But I do feel that the Stella Goldschlag of the WWII period was no nazi, but dedicated to bettering the lives of fellow Jews by not provoking the nazis”. I suggest everybody go to the link provided above to read about the WW2 Stella who, in fact, was a collaborator who sent 600-3000 Jews to their deaths. For our Stella to write what she wrote proves two things: (1) our Stella is a moonbat; (2) when our Stella writes regarding “…the return of the israelis to their TRUE homelands”, she really means a return to the ovens in Poland.

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  36. “Regarding your assertion that the IDF is different from the Egyptian army in that it exists to protect the people as opposed to the regime, however, is a ridiculous revisionist and fantastical reading of week-old history. The Egyptian army did not protect the regime, in fact, it was most likely responsible for removing it.”

    The problem is that the IDF is not composed of fellow Palestinians, but of Israelis who likely wouldn’t lose any sleep over the thought of mowing down a few thousand ‘terrorists’. Oh okay, maybe they would lose sleep and find it terribly tragic, but they’d still do it.
    If Palestinians should choose the path of mass nonviolent actions, they need to be prepared to stoically shrug off the massacres that will no doubt be inflicted to them.

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  38. Koshiro: You should have read the next few sentences of my comment:

    the IDF’s plays a dual role vis-a-vis the Palestinians. While its primary stated mission is to protect the Israeli people, it is also charged with upholding the occupation regime.

    The article is a big question that asks how the IDF would respond to such a scenario. My conclusion was that it is entirely unprepared to deal with a situation in which it is forced to decide whether to retreat or attack in the face of mass demonstrations.

    Your assessment that Palestinians should be prepared tragedy in such a situation might be fair, but I don’t think the IDF or Israel could deal with the aftermath of a televised mass tragedy. Therefore, perhaps out of naivety and optimism, I don’t believe they would fire into crowds the way Libya is today.

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  40. I did read them, but I do not see where this is going to make the IDF think twice before killing Palestinians. Indeed, I would imagine that for most IDF soldiers, protecting Israel and maintaining the occupation (to avoid ‘unrest’, ‘terror’, whatever) goes hand in hand.

    You say you’re optimistic that IDF soldiers wouldn’t fire into crowds. Do you mean that they wouldn’t receive the order to or that they wouldn’t follow it? Let’s assume that 100,000 Palestinians gather and march towards the Wall in some place with the stated and obvious intent of tearing it down. You do think the Israeli government and the IDF would rather see the Wall torn down than fire at these protesters? I don’t, judging from previous experience.

    You also say that Israel could not deal with the televised backlash. Can you be more concrete? Continuing from the above scenario, what would happen if the IDF did fire and several hundred Palestinians were killed as a result? Assume that this is indeed widely televised and causes outrage around the world, and in the Muslim world in particular.
    The US cutting its military aid? Economic sanctions? The suspension of Israel’s membership in the OECD?
    Again, judging from previous experience, I am rather skeptical.



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