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	<title>Comments on: Bibi has no reason to fear an Obama victory</title>
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	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79475</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2012 19:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Where is the Israeli left political parties?

Why so silent?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where is the Israeli left political parties?</p>
<p>Why so silent?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79378</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2012 01:28:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79378</guid>
		<description>http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-s-coalition-already-planning-for-early-elections-in-2013.premium-1.467707

Netanyahu is also racing the electoral opposition. &quot;If they reach the point that they are 90% prepared to with their weapons, then we are all in danger.&quot;

And, of course, the left is not preparing anything, so there is nothing for Netanyahu to be afraid of.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-s-coalition-already-planning-for-early-elections-in-2013.premium-1.467707" rel="nofollow">http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/netanyahu-s-coalition-already-planning-for-early-elections-in-2013.premium-1.467707</a></p>
<p>Netanyahu is also racing the electoral opposition. &#8220;If they reach the point that they are 90% prepared to with their weapons, then we are all in danger.&#8221;</p>
<p>And, of course, the left is not preparing anything, so there is nothing for Netanyahu to be afraid of.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79191</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2012 11:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79191</guid>
		<description>The self-governance is the ideology.

So long as there are states and large movements (or even small movements with aspirations to remove Israel from the map), then Zionism remains relevant.

Its another example of &quot;Hamas electing likud&quot; or the prospect for next election of &quot;Iran/Hezbollah electing likud&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The self-governance is the ideology.</p>
<p>So long as there are states and large movements (or even small movements with aspirations to remove Israel from the map), then Zionism remains relevant.</p>
<p>Its another example of &#8220;Hamas electing likud&#8221; or the prospect for next election of &#8220;Iran/Hezbollah electing likud&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Pollock</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79136</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Pollock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2012 02:44:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79136</guid>
		<description>Larry, I don&#039;t think there is much the US can do.  If Israel strikes Iran without US approval/aid I think there will be a foregin policy elite reset; but pro Israeli populism on the right will if anything increase.  One&#039;s own perceptions are so overwhelming that it is hard to know when anything said maps onto whatever reality there is; but I have just a suspicion that the White House a) dislikes much of the Israeli elite and many Knesset actions and b) thinks nothing can be done until said eilte changes or there is a real blow up on the Bank.  Obama&#039;s silence on Cast Lead  is instructive:  I really dobut the incoming Administration liked it at all, but they were (and are) unwilling to burn up time when real domestic issues remain--healthcare, the economy will turn into a real hell fights, again, even if O is reelected.  

All of this fits Bibi&#039;s first and present terms:  show the US that you will not move, so they stop trying, then inch the settlements and final bantu solution forward, expunging those you can from the land as you go.  I actually think this White House sees all this.  But then, I have my perceptions...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Larry, I don&#8217;t think there is much the US can do.  If Israel strikes Iran without US approval/aid I think there will be a foregin policy elite reset; but pro Israeli populism on the right will if anything increase.  One&#8217;s own perceptions are so overwhelming that it is hard to know when anything said maps onto whatever reality there is; but I have just a suspicion that the White House a) dislikes much of the Israeli elite and many Knesset actions and b) thinks nothing can be done until said eilte changes or there is a real blow up on the Bank.  Obama&#8217;s silence on Cast Lead  is instructive:  I really dobut the incoming Administration liked it at all, but they were (and are) unwilling to burn up time when real domestic issues remain&#8211;healthcare, the economy will turn into a real hell fights, again, even if O is reelected.  </p>
<p>All of this fits Bibi&#8217;s first and present terms:  show the US that you will not move, so they stop trying, then inch the settlements and final bantu solution forward, expunging those you can from the land as you go.  I actually think this White House sees all this.  But then, I have my perceptions&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Philos</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79130</link>
		<dc:creator>Philos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 23:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79130</guid>
		<description>Israelis already have self-governance in the State of Israel. All Zionism perpetuates today is chauvinism and aggressive discrimination against non-Jewish citizens, especially Palestinian-Israelis, the Druze and the Bedouin. I also think Zionism perpetuates Jewish insecurity in Israel because its entire mantra is revolves around fear and dispossession. I think an Israeli civic nationalism modeled after the American or French republican models would inspire more hope here than the fundamentally racist dogma of Zionism. Zionism served its purpose; there is a Jewish state. It is time to let go of this ideology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Israelis already have self-governance in the State of Israel. All Zionism perpetuates today is chauvinism and aggressive discrimination against non-Jewish citizens, especially Palestinian-Israelis, the Druze and the Bedouin. I also think Zionism perpetuates Jewish insecurity in Israel because its entire mantra is revolves around fear and dispossession. I think an Israeli civic nationalism modeled after the American or French republican models would inspire more hope here than the fundamentally racist dogma of Zionism. Zionism served its purpose; there is a Jewish state. It is time to let go of this ideology.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79101</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 19:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79101</guid>
		<description>Philos,
What do you think would be better than self-governance to the Jewish majority of Israel?

How would you go about convincing them of that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philos,<br />
What do you think would be better than self-governance to the Jewish majority of Israel?</p>
<p>How would you go about convincing them of that?</p>
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		<title>By: Philos</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79082</link>
		<dc:creator>Philos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79082</guid>
		<description>@Danaa, it&#039;s not the current government that doesn&#039;t care about Jews around the world - every Israeli government hasn&#039;t given a damn about the Diaspora. To them they&#039;re only good for their money and an ideological nuisance because their very existence (and their prosperity) repudiates everything Zionism stands for. Zionism hates Jewish life outside of Israel; it must by necessity otherwise it&#039;s a pointless ideology.
.
Time for Israelis to let go of Zionism and embrace something better</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Danaa, it&#8217;s not the current government that doesn&#8217;t care about Jews around the world &#8211; every Israeli government hasn&#8217;t given a damn about the Diaspora. To them they&#8217;re only good for their money and an ideological nuisance because their very existence (and their prosperity) repudiates everything Zionism stands for. Zionism hates Jewish life outside of Israel; it must by necessity otherwise it&#8217;s a pointless ideology.<br />
.<br />
Time for Israelis to let go of Zionism and embrace something better</p>
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		<title>By: Danaa</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79060</link>
		<dc:creator>Danaa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79060</guid>
		<description>I agree with the other commenters here. Larry may be reading the Democratic establishment right but not the mood in the American street, not the American military and probably not the big money in general either. Something has changed and the people of America, not just the 98% who are not Jewish but the 70% of the remaining 2%. They are all united in wanting their economy back. Their optimism, Their spiritual health. Thei moral high ground. Even most republicans (ie the ones who dare speak honestly) understand that the endless wars - Netanyahu&#039;s prescription for America, is hurting their country. And israel is blamed - behind the scenes, in hushed voices, at least for now.

 Even out in middle America, where republicanism is a way of life and conservatism reigns, they don&#039;t like the Bibi creature, they don&#039;t like the aggressiveness, they hate the disrespect towards the US country they hold dear. And though they may not care for Obama much, they care for the establishment elites even less. Ordinary Americans are often too polite to say what they mean by &quot;elites&quot;. But what&#039;s left unsaid is plenty. And that&#039;s before we get to the democrats - the rank and file - not the movers and shakers who need to raise money to survive in the lime light.

Yahoo et al may be counting on Christian zionists and whipped up muslim hatred. But there really aren&#039;t so many of the former (though they make much noise), and the latter, what there is of it, is superficial. Of course, netanyahu cannot process just how superficial dislike of islam and muslims is in America. There is some, to be sure, but it&#039;s like a fog, it can evaporate in a jiffy when more important issues come up. Israelis may dislike muslims intensely. Well, they - the especially the right wing ones - should not make the mistake of projecting their gut feelings on others elsewhere..  

There is a rumble just under the surface in America and Bibi just made sure it got just a bit more intense. It is still underground, but for those who tune in, it is loud enough to hear. And one group that hears it quite well are the Jewish people of America. I expect that we&#039;ll hear more and more voices singing tunes we are not accustomed to hearing from that corner. Israel is basically threatening to make charges of dual loyalty manifest. That can only happen because the israel of now, as represented by its hapless government cares not a hoot about the Jews of the world in general, and those who are American in particular.

Of course, Larry is right about democrats needing money, and whthe fact 9which he didn&#039;t bring up) that well over 60% of democrat funding comes from jewish donors. . But that&#039;s all it is - jewish money, not Jewish voters. One of these days, not long from now, the latter may just make it clear where they really stand. I believe that when that happens, the monied class - Jewish and not - that infamous 1% - will take heed, and make just a little room for Obama and others to walk through. 

Of course, if I - and others - didn&#039;t believe that, then all would be truly lost, and we don&#039;t want that, do we?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the other commenters here. Larry may be reading the Democratic establishment right but not the mood in the American street, not the American military and probably not the big money in general either. Something has changed and the people of America, not just the 98% who are not Jewish but the 70% of the remaining 2%. They are all united in wanting their economy back. Their optimism, Their spiritual health. Thei moral high ground. Even most republicans (ie the ones who dare speak honestly) understand that the endless wars &#8211; Netanyahu&#8217;s prescription for America, is hurting their country. And israel is blamed &#8211; behind the scenes, in hushed voices, at least for now.</p>
<p> Even out in middle America, where republicanism is a way of life and conservatism reigns, they don&#8217;t like the Bibi creature, they don&#8217;t like the aggressiveness, they hate the disrespect towards the US country they hold dear. And though they may not care for Obama much, they care for the establishment elites even less. Ordinary Americans are often too polite to say what they mean by &#8220;elites&#8221;. But what&#8217;s left unsaid is plenty. And that&#8217;s before we get to the democrats &#8211; the rank and file &#8211; not the movers and shakers who need to raise money to survive in the lime light.</p>
<p>Yahoo et al may be counting on Christian zionists and whipped up muslim hatred. But there really aren&#8217;t so many of the former (though they make much noise), and the latter, what there is of it, is superficial. Of course, netanyahu cannot process just how superficial dislike of islam and muslims is in America. There is some, to be sure, but it&#8217;s like a fog, it can evaporate in a jiffy when more important issues come up. Israelis may dislike muslims intensely. Well, they &#8211; the especially the right wing ones &#8211; should not make the mistake of projecting their gut feelings on others elsewhere..  </p>
<p>There is a rumble just under the surface in America and Bibi just made sure it got just a bit more intense. It is still underground, but for those who tune in, it is loud enough to hear. And one group that hears it quite well are the Jewish people of America. I expect that we&#8217;ll hear more and more voices singing tunes we are not accustomed to hearing from that corner. Israel is basically threatening to make charges of dual loyalty manifest. That can only happen because the israel of now, as represented by its hapless government cares not a hoot about the Jews of the world in general, and those who are American in particular.</p>
<p>Of course, Larry is right about democrats needing money, and whthe fact 9which he didn&#8217;t bring up) that well over 60% of democrat funding comes from jewish donors. . But that&#8217;s all it is &#8211; jewish money, not Jewish voters. One of these days, not long from now, the latter may just make it clear where they really stand. I believe that when that happens, the monied class &#8211; Jewish and not &#8211; that infamous 1% &#8211; will take heed, and make just a little room for Obama and others to walk through. </p>
<p>Of course, if I &#8211; and others &#8211; didn&#8217;t believe that, then all would be truly lost, and we don&#8217;t want that, do we?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Witty</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79059</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Witty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 09:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79059</guid>
		<description>The most effective response would be to articulate an alternative proposal, and pursue it.

Bibi will disappear from political relevance. He is not prime minister for life.

But, unless something changes, there is likely to be Muslim world animosity for life, which will compel Israelis to remain risk-averse.

Likud tries to present itself as the &quot;risk-averse&quot; party, in contrast to its plausible opponents, but its internal cadre and coalition bridge to the opportunistic expansionistas and the neo-fascist.

Likud has three vulnerabilities. 

One is the association with the neo-fascists within and between parties. 

The second is the breakdown in relations that Netanyahu presided over relative to Turkey, PA, Egypt, and Jordan during his tenure. If it weren&#039;t for Iran and Hezbollah&#039;s actual threats, the US would be on that list.

I believe that in 2009, Hamas elected likud, and in 2013 it could be Iran that elects likud, by making their logic the most relevant in the time. Even if Netanyahu succeeds in inducing the US to present a hard enough stance to achieve the victory over Iran, proving his mettle, the conditions in the world will have changed (reduced threat), and looking into the future, his negatives (increased Israeli regional isolation, in unnecessary ways) will be more relevant.

The third is on the Israeli economy. Its doing well for the upper middle class and elite, but unemployment is still high, the cost of living is high, and there is a backlog of irritations building.

If noone rises to the challenge to articulate an alternative approach for Israel, or if the indirect (not political) social movements don&#039;t begin to articulate even utopian social alternatives that monkey wrench the likud/free market ism, then the economic/social leaking will hasten.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most effective response would be to articulate an alternative proposal, and pursue it.</p>
<p>Bibi will disappear from political relevance. He is not prime minister for life.</p>
<p>But, unless something changes, there is likely to be Muslim world animosity for life, which will compel Israelis to remain risk-averse.</p>
<p>Likud tries to present itself as the &#8220;risk-averse&#8221; party, in contrast to its plausible opponents, but its internal cadre and coalition bridge to the opportunistic expansionistas and the neo-fascist.</p>
<p>Likud has three vulnerabilities. </p>
<p>One is the association with the neo-fascists within and between parties. </p>
<p>The second is the breakdown in relations that Netanyahu presided over relative to Turkey, PA, Egypt, and Jordan during his tenure. If it weren&#8217;t for Iran and Hezbollah&#8217;s actual threats, the US would be on that list.</p>
<p>I believe that in 2009, Hamas elected likud, and in 2013 it could be Iran that elects likud, by making their logic the most relevant in the time. Even if Netanyahu succeeds in inducing the US to present a hard enough stance to achieve the victory over Iran, proving his mettle, the conditions in the world will have changed (reduced threat), and looking into the future, his negatives (increased Israeli regional isolation, in unnecessary ways) will be more relevant.</p>
<p>The third is on the Israeli economy. Its doing well for the upper middle class and elite, but unemployment is still high, the cost of living is high, and there is a backlog of irritations building.</p>
<p>If noone rises to the challenge to articulate an alternative approach for Israel, or if the indirect (not political) social movements don&#8217;t begin to articulate even utopian social alternatives that monkey wrench the likud/free market ism, then the economic/social leaking will hasten.</p>
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		<title>By: Kolumn9</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/bibi-has-nothing-to-worry-about-from-an-obama-victory/56695/comment-page-1/#comment-79035</link>
		<dc:creator>Kolumn9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2012 00:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=56695#comment-79035</guid>
		<description>It is hilarious reading all these true believers. Four years of Obama later they still see a shining knight that will slay all their dreaded dragons for them even though all you he is a small and ineffective man who reads very well from a teleprompter.

The support Israel has among the American people and in Congress isn&#039;t going to change with the election of 2012. So, even presuming that Obama is in fact lying about his current pro-Israel credentials whatever Obama wants to do in his second term will face the exact same constraints as during his first administration. And suppose that Obama sends his flying monkeys to campaign against Bibi in the next Israeli election and Bibi is pushed out of office or the Americans find some way to topple Bibi. What then? How different would Israeli policy be towards the Palestinians or Iran under a Labor coalition? Any of you want to point me to a major difference in the approaches on either of these issues among the leading Israeli politicians? Come on. Get real.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is hilarious reading all these true believers. Four years of Obama later they still see a shining knight that will slay all their dreaded dragons for them even though all you he is a small and ineffective man who reads very well from a teleprompter.</p>
<p>The support Israel has among the American people and in Congress isn&#8217;t going to change with the election of 2012. So, even presuming that Obama is in fact lying about his current pro-Israel credentials whatever Obama wants to do in his second term will face the exact same constraints as during his first administration. And suppose that Obama sends his flying monkeys to campaign against Bibi in the next Israeli election and Bibi is pushed out of office or the Americans find some way to topple Bibi. What then? How different would Israeli policy be towards the Palestinians or Iran under a Labor coalition? Any of you want to point me to a major difference in the approaches on either of these issues among the leading Israeli politicians? Come on. Get real.</p>
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