80 comments for ”Who is afraid of BDS?“

    
  1. Sorry to enter so late into this debate. I hope I’m not repeating things that have already been considered (if so, just ignore).
    I’m very happy you raised – Dana and Blumenthal – the important question of whether one should support the BDS. Nevertheless I do not think that your way of presetting the issue is always particularly felicitous. For instance, I don’t see the point in complaining about demonstrators in SJ or their supporters that appose the BDS nor do I find anything particularly troubling with someone (a waiter) who consideres the protest in Bil’in too violent or dangerous. It would be better, I think, for activists to welcome and encourage the sympathetic discouraged rather than condemning them for their dispare or inability to act.
    I have no doubt that the BDS might be effective in dismantling the horrible occupation regime. (What you need, though, is a reason to think that it is the best way to reach this crucially important end.) My question is whether it won’t take a lot more with it. I can see how a boycott of products from the settlements might be somewhat effective and how it will stop when there are no more products of this sort. I don’t know, and I wonder if anyone has a better answer than I do to the question of whether there is any way of insuring that an effective delegitimizing boycott that brings down the occupation wont bring Israel/PA down (or up) into a Lebanon-like state of all out civil war. Understandably, It is hard to expect Palestinians will come to the jews’ rescue – if I were them I wouden’t. The question, then, is simply this: where will an effective boycott end? (Here the diference with South Africa might be important.)
    I expect you think, like me, that (very sadly) Israel has lost its legitimacy to exist given its 40+ years occupation and 60+ years of inequality for its arab citizens. Yet the way to regain this legitimacy might depend on a transformation of the Israeli public in the direction of a true democracy not by way of ending its existence (an end that may very well spell dome for jews and arabs alike). This brings me back to your presentation. Clearly, understandably, but hopefully not justifiably, you have given up on jewish Israelis. I’m well on the way of agreeing with you but I’m still holding out (and hoping that Fayyad will save us from ourselves).

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  3. Rachel,

    I think I’ve been listening. If you think BDS is a legitimate way of fighting the occupation, don’t complain that you yourself get “boycotted”.

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  5. I am gratified that many readers here have concluded that the zionist entity has lost its legitimacy. Lets use our momentum not only to reverse the theft of 1967, but that of 1948 as well

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  7. Joseph,

    Have you given up on finding common ground?

    BDS is a “you are either with us, or against us” mantra.

    What ever happened to “live and let live”?

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  9. You might be interested in reading this piece from a few days ago about how BDS manifests itself in Britain
    http://www.thejc.com/bedouin-arabs/44724/anti-israel-protesters-clash-israels-top-bedouin-diplomat

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  11. It’s wonderful to read such a thoughtful piece and sincere comments. I want to try to respond to some of the latter. To put my own comment in context, I am not Jewish or Israeli or Muslim or Palestinian. So I am keenly sensitive to the charges of hypocrisy that one of the commenters made earlier. In a sense, the occupation is not ‘my’ fight. And so BDS makes me uneasy insofar as it asks me to take a personal and political stand against the occupation by doing my part to make everyday, average Israelis uncomfortable, even if their own connection to the occupation is merely the tenuous one of apathy. I am uncomfortable with the idea of attacking average Israelis’ comfort zone for a few reason. First, my own government may be doing things that are just as bad, or worse. Second, there are worse things going on elsewhere in the world. I’m not saying that BDS is only for Israelis and Palestinians, just that for everyone else, there is a certain freedom to choose the “cause” you want to get involved in, and thus there seems to be a kind of responsibility to try to pick a cause where the suffering is particularly acute and abysmal. Even if I decide that the occupation is “my” cause, is BDS the right way to go about it? Shouldn’t I be targeting my own government’s role (e.g. US military subsidies) rather than trying to make Israelis anxious? And yet — and this modest point is actually all that I wanted to say — BDS has another kind of appeal for people in my position. This might sound trite, but the comparison that comes to mind is that of people who want to eat food that does not poison the environment, endanger workers, and cause needless animal suffering in the production process; or of people who want to wear clothes that are not made by exploited child workers; people who want, in short, to be responsible consumers. I think BDS has a future because it appeals to people who don’t want Israel to disappear and who don’t necessarily think that Palestinians are the most oppressed people on earth. It appeals to people who don’t want to give their own money to companies that are effectively making money off of an occupation that physically and mentally hurts Palestinian men, women and children every hour. For me, BDS is not a political statement, and it is not about taking an action against Israel. It is about trying to be responsible in a global economy, by trying to prevent my own actions from perpetuating a system that causes pain and oppression. I should do the same regarding oppression in Tibet, in the US, in Brazil, and anywhere else. If the BDS movement and NGOs like “Who Profits” give me the information that enables me to act on this moral impulse when it comes to Israel/OPT, I am not being anti-Israel (or anti-Israelis) by acting on that information, I am simply not turning a blind eye.

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  13. The people who organise these protests are the same people who support BDS, which is particularly strong in Scotland and has made several attempts to disrupt performances by the Jerusalem String Quartet. One of their performances at the Wigmore Hall in London, which was being recorded for the BBC, had to be called off because of shouting from BDS members in the audiences (lots online about this).

    I am sure you are not anti-Israel, but then you are an Israeli Jew living there. Here in Britain the prevailing discourse is Zionism is Racism and Israel is an apartheid state. I hear very little now from the BDS people I meet about ending the occupation.

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  15. This is a very interesting piece and exchange.
    “The culture of apathy which surrounds much of life in Israel is exactly what allows to the occupation to continue”, this is a painful true, but a true indeed. Anyway, until now I dont have a final opinion about the boycott, I am still thinking, but i have some thoughts about the comments.
    Yes, to be from a country that occupy another one and support only a boycott to israel is “selective activism”, If someone support a boycott against “X”, he has to support the boycott to the others “X”. Only to be coherent. I think now about the english people for example, to call a boycott on Israel when they are in the Malvinas Islands (sorry if this place is not so famous for the general public, but they still use the colonial name, they are there since almost two hundreed years ago), Gibraltar, Ireland, etc, is very funny and sad too. I am big fan of elvis costello but you have to be coherent.
    second, to call the words of Uri Avnery ridiculuous is a little bit too much. Maybe he thinks different, but please remember, he wrote books like “Israel without zionists” before a lot of us discover the occupation of palestine, and before 1967 too. And now he is a very old man, but he´s in the front line too. I want to see a lot of us at his age, where we going to be at 80?
    PD: One question, why people dont sign his comments?. Is like to shoot a bullet and dont show the face.
    regards.

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  17. The supporters of BDS towards Israel are hypocritical.
    I would suggest the following countries should receive the BDS treatment:
    1. Lebanon for its comparatively worse treatment of Palestinians
    2. Saudi Arabia for gender apartheid
    3. Syria for the Hama Massacre and repression

    and the list is long…..

    Singling out Israel is fun for some. However if there are far worse perpetrators of human rights abuses in the area, I would suggest focusing on them.
    Unfortunately, many radical Jews find their identity in the shape of some misguided organizations that have nothing to do with human rights or justice.

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  19. I think that Michael W. has made my point for me. You can boycott me and everyone else who is part of this rapidly growing movement, you can say that you don’t like our tactics, but it won’t make Israel’s policies or its underlying philosophies any more popular in the world. And it won’t stop the things you claim you don’t like about Israel either. Your decision to dismiss us means that this problem will fall to the next generation of Jews to clean up. We have a moral responsibility to at least be 100% sure that we are doing everything we can to do what’s right. It is appropriate, moral and compelling to boycott Israel. An artist refusing to play there because of Israel’s policies sends a powerful message to change hearts and minds. How could you possibly view this as an affront? The irony of your reaction is that this is ultimately what will save us…

    @Joseph I actually would have liked to hear more from Majid. I think that Palestinians and Arabs are willfully misinterpreted by Israelis and their Jewish supporters abroad. I wish that he had the freedom to explain what he meant when he said he wanted to reverse 48. I feel like everyone presumes he means he wants to throw Jews into the sea, when in fact he might mean something very different. How can we possibly ever come up with creative solutions for the future when we don’t have the full story of what he meant? I don’t mean any offense and I appreciate your work.

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  21. @NYC Lawyer – without a doubt there is no shortage of other “worthy” BDS targets, but the topic here is Jews supporting BDS groups.

    I think that there is most definitely a role for Jewish groups to criticize Israeli policy. But when that criticism evolves into actively supporting groups or policies which are “anti-Israel” (ie which negate Israel’s right to exist), things become more problematic.

    Personally, I find Jewish BDS activists *outside of Israel* to be rather naive. If you care about Israel, agitate for Israel to change. Let the Palestinians struggle against Israel in whatever way they find to be most appropriate.

    If I were still living in Israel, I might feel differently. And I certainly do not presume to be in a position to tell any Israeli what is the most appropriate way for them to change their society from within.

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  23. Rachel,

    Joseph did not ban Majid from participating, he asked him to be civil. Majid’s comments are very clear in other blogs as to how he would like the State of Israel to disappear. Some of his comments have been abhorrent and insulting.

    If the BDS movement is growing, so is the anti BDS! I do not support the occupation but I find not looking into the obstacles the palestinian leaders have put against a peace accord and against simply improving the conditions their people live in, naive and dangerous. Yes, Israel is accountable but so are the palestinian leaders, and why do we never hear about that?

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  25. Rachel,

    You sound like a “medieval” Christian missionary. What I mean by that is that you are trying to “save” us even though all we are trying to do is live our lives. But no, “You can’t have a normal life.” Those missionaries forced the Jews to listen to their sermons.

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  27. @joseph, I’m sorry but I just didn’t see him calling anyone a name. I understand what you’re trying to achieve, though, so if you thought it was best to upbraid him then fine.
    @michael w. The irony of your reaction to me is that I really hope that you or any other Jew never experience antisemitism, which is why I have dedicated my life to doing this work. I am not forcing anyone to listen to anything. I am begging you to reconsider and to stop dismissing us, but ultimately, you are free to make your own choices, just like I am free not to purchase products that come from a country that is committing crimes in the name of my liberation and the name of my ancestors’ suffering. I can see that you are just reacting sensitively to the messenger, which I did once upon a time as well. But, if you care about Jewish suffering, you will do your best to end the crimes Israel is committing. I’m certain at this point that you’re just going to reply with nastiness, because this is a challenging topic. So, you are welcome to lob one last insult at me, for whatever it’s worth to you. I hope it’s emotionally satisfying, because it won’t solve Israel’s problems. BDS, however, brings Israelis and Palestinians together with people around the world who support peace and justice. I think you realize which side most reasonable people will choose.

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  29. Rachel,
    I don’t know exactly what you support. I think that in order to stop said “crimes”, it should be done through the political process. Why boycott Osem because they weren’t able to influence the Israeli government enough to stop said “crimes”?

    BDS has been the decades long effort of the Arab regimes against Jews even before the State of Israel was created. If you want to come together with Syria, we know where you stand on Israel, and it has nothing to do with “justice” or “peace”.

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  31. Dear Joseph
    I have not called anyone names. My goal in participating in this discussion is to talk about the scope of BDS. I believe that the creation of the zionist entity in 1948 was a horrible error by the UN. I think the Goldstone Report is a belated but small attempt to rectify this error. BDS offers the best way not only to reverse the zionist gains thru aggressive war in 1967. My goal is the voluntary resettlement of Jews outside of Palestine, which could be funded by Soros using the billions that he has extracted from the Muslim world thru currency speculation

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  33. @Majid, you are entitled to your opinion about the creation of the “zionist entity”, but why would two wrongs (throwing out yet another population) make a right? Perhaps some Israelis would prefer to “voluntarily” move to other places, but perhaps some Palestinians might also like to be able to legally settle where they are currently located?

    But what does BDS have to do with any of this? Are you suggesting that Israelis should boycott their own country by moving somewhere else?

    PS: Interesting choice of ‘moniker’ you have there: Mossad spy, Iranian kick-boxer, anything else?

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  35. Excellent article and resulting debate. But it seems that, with a very few exceptions, most respondents here are dancing around Avnery’s main point. I wasn’t asking what is BDS, what are its goals, or whether it should or should not be applied here in the Israel/Palestine context. I am working under the assumption – and the current reality – that it is indeed being applied. The main point that I brought for debate and consideration is this: BDS might not work here in the same way that it worked in South Africa. It MIGHT, as reader Michael Omer-Man was one of the few to acknowledge, in fact result in an opposite of the intended effect: ie, the hardening to the political right of the Israeli public rather than increased Israeli public pressure to end the occupation. Why are BDS proponents, including right here in this very lively debate, so reluctant to consider this possibility? It’s not unreasonable. It’s a distinct possibility, and to BDS proponents it should be considered a dangerous possibility. But ignoring it won’t make it go away… Joseph, you are among the few in this debate to have considered this option: “…an Israeli move to the right might actually help the situation of ending the occupation because the international community will no longer be presented with soft versions of Israeli understandings of the Palestinians… I do not fear an Israeli move to the right because I think that the situation must get worse and our political language/actions become more openly hostile before things will get better.” Thanks for your comments. Could you explain further how you see the international community responding to a more hardened-to-the-right Israeli public? And how do you envision the situation getting worse? What will that entail and how might it help, how will might it eventually then pull things around to an improved situation? In short: What? :)

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  37. Mati,

    The advocates of BDS here, at least some of them, want Israel to turn further right so the world can see how bad Israel is and impose a “just” solution to the conflict.

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  39. Michael, nice smearing attempts, but BDS is unrelated to the Syrian government.

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  41. Ofer, I think that Michael was referring to Arab League efforts to force a boycott of Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_League_boycott_of_Israel

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  43. Zvi, I know what he was aiming at.

    The BDS campaign is a grassroots campaign, not a government-sponsored campaign. Most, if not all, its Arab participants regard the Syrian regime in the same manner as they regard the Egyptian regime.

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  45. The BDS campaign reflects Western gullibility, selective outrage and hypocrisy. The fact is that Israel has a FAR better (if imperfect) human rights record than the other Arab states.

    Now I anticipate the usual retorts of :
    “don’t change the subject”
    “two wrongs don’t make a right”

    Or my favorite – “you automatically call critics of Israel anti semitic and self hating” (to suggest that there aren’t overwhelming substantive arguments for Israel’s cause

    If you want to single out Israel and employ punitive measures against it – Reasonable people have a right to call out your hypocrisy as a neutral and balanced observer.

    Simple analogy and logic – Country X commits 100 violations but Countries Y and Z commit 10000 violations…. and then Countries Y and Z come demanding answers from Country X.

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  47. Joseph, when I made a comment about why palestinian leaders are not accountable you suggested I read the Palestine Papers, which of course I already have. Putting aside ther reliability and the fact that these were leaked selectively, this is not what I meant. What I really mean is the daily life of the palestinian people, which is really difficult. There has been a lot of money from various countries (The E.U., Japan)over the years, sent to the occupied territories with the explicit purpose of improving the daily lives of the palestinian people, such as inproving roads, sewers, etc. That has not happened and there is a need for accountabilty for that. This is not divest Israel for its responsibility at all, it’s just another side of the coin. Our blogs, BDS, etc. are hopefully done with the first hope to improve the lives of the palestinian people no?

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  49. [...] Joseph Dana and Max Blumenthal: BDS targets the right group in Israeli society. [...]

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  51. Israel is a racist state simple and plain!
    Admit it or not. It is true
    FREE PALESTINE



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