Comments on: As prisoners reach the breaking point, what will Israel do?

By: RichardL

RichardL — Fri, 04 May 2012 20:18:06 +0000

Kolumn: you are long on denials and short on citations to back it up. In the IRA’s case action spoke a lot louder than words. Targeting civilians or reckless with civilian life, what’s the difference? In Enniskillen they were prepared to accept a few loyalist civilian deaths in order to kill members of the Ulster Defence Regiment on Remembrance Sunday. In the event they managed to kill eleven civilians and no soldiers. (Another bomb in Tullyhommon on the same day failed to go off.) No apology was given; instead the IRA to lie their way out, rather like the IDF with the use of white phosphorus in Gaza for example. I will leave you to analyse that. Amateur psychiatry is not a strong interest of mine. Brings back memories of a pompous Israeli soldier in Hebron asking me what colour my bedroom was. Half a day of lectures probably and he was ready to try out his new found expertise on me. Now here’s Kolumn trying to put me in another box. And your training in psychiatry is?

Funny thing about this humanitarian theory on the prisoner release is that inconvenient facts keep getting in the way. Try this article in yesterday’s English edition of Haaretz for example. http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/diplomania/israel-should-reduce-use-of-administrative-detentions-for-palestinians-top-official-says-1.428118 The Public Security Minister declares that use administrative detention should be reduced to a minimum. He has also held two sessions to discuss hunger strikes, the second with representatives from the Defence Ministry, the Justice Ministry, IDF, Shin Bet, and the prison service. Then the chief of the prison service holds a meeting with prisoners including Marwan Barghouti in which he discussed what demands would bring about an end to the strike. Meanwhile Dangot, the Coordinator of the Occupation in the West Bank objects to the lifting of the Shalit sanctions. So obviously this possibility has been discussed with him too. I presume you would have us believe that all this amounts to humanitarian concerns on the part of Israel. Of course it is pure coincidence that these initiatives are taking place when Foreign Ministry officials are concerned that several European states along with the UN envoy to the Middle East might start filing protests soon. And still you tell us there are no parallels with Bobby Sands.

You say that “MOST of your anti-Israeli accusations are fiction that has no basis in reality” [my emphasis]. So which Israeli terrorist activities do you acknowledge to be true? And yes I would like to see some poll results. How about what percentage of Israelis wanted to sink the Mavi Marmara on the high seas for example? BTW do you happen to know how many Israelis used to go and watch (and cheer) the aerial bombardments that were part of Operation Cast Lead?

By: the other joe

the other joe — Fri, 04 May 2012 07:44:31 +0000

@Kolumn9, I have never said that violence is an acceptable response to anything, so I suggest you take that back. I have lived through the changes in Northern Ireland, clearly you have not.

By: Kolumn9

Kolumn9 — Thu, 03 May 2012 22:53:50 +0000

@TOJ, For your education in every case you listed the IRA insisted that it was targeting soldiers, faced condemnation from within its own public and apologized for the deaths of civilians. Would you like to compare this with the treatment of suicide bombers in Palestinian society? The reason the bombings stopped was because the IRA became convinced that it could not win. British soldiers still patrol Northern Ireland. The Orange order conducts its marches. Northern Ireland is still a part of the United Kingdom. The IRA compromised massively or lost entirely depending on one’s point of view. Everything else is a face-saving exercise.
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I repeat. When Fatah and Hamas get to the point that the IRA they will find Israel generous. Until then there is no point in having a conversation with political groups that continue to believe that murdering your civilians is a legitimate act of protest.
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@RichardL, whichever the IRA were they themselves opposed targeting civilians and were facing a public that condemned attacks against civilians.
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Most of your anti-Israeli accusations are fiction that has no basis in reality. Israel by explicit policy does not target civilians, nor is there public support in Israel for attacking civilians. You will find not a single legal political party that would support the targeting of Palestinian civilians. Would you like to show me a poll or anything else that would prove otherwise?
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There are certainly Israelis that make humanitarian arguments and sometimes they are accepted by the powers that be and sometimes not. Arguing that Israel is monolithic on an Israeli site where many writers agree with you is somewhat problematic. The hunger strikers were released because there are some Israelis that for political purposes prefer framing these issues in isolation on individual or humanitarian grounds while avoiding looking at wider consequences on government policy.
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You have a logical fallacy by claiming that you are certain that the wasn’t a humanitarian gesture because as you argue Israel a priori isn’t capable of humanitarian gestures. I believe your fallacy is this one: http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic

By: RichardL

RichardL — Thu, 03 May 2012 18:44:42 +0000

Kolumn, the fact is that civilians were killed and injured by the IRA and the bombings continued. Were they just stupid Paddies trying to perfect their warnings or were they calculating killers not concerned about the civilian casualties? The latter seems more likely.

By the why are you only talking about Irish and Palestinians? The elephant in the room is the terrorist state of Israel. The list is impressive: DIME, flechettes (the sophisticated terrorist’s nail bomb), nerve gas, white phosphorus, starvation, torture, summary execution or prisoners, mass executions of rounded up civilians, communal punishments, depleted uranium, poisoning of water sources, targeted assassinations (not just Arabs either)…well that should do to tide us over. And in case you have not noticed the casualties from Israeli terror exceed by a considerable margin those killed by Palestinians. ‘Course I don’t know what percentage of the Israeli society (at least the Jewish part of it) supports the attacks on civilians, whether on the high seas or in Palestine or in Bahrain or wherever. Perhaps you would care to furnish us with that statistic?

And I don’t buy your dismissal of the comparison of hunger striking in Ireland vis-à-vis Israel. Fact is two hunger strikers were released by Israel. Anyone who declares this was a humanitarian gesture either has a vested interest in saying so, or they do not know what they are talking about. Israel does not do humanitarian gestures (other than for PR purposes such as in Haiti after the earthquake). So why were they released, especially when it was obvious that it would provoke further hunger strikes? Presumably because the consequences of letting them die was a worst scenario for the Israeli rulers. And that is exactly the lesson that Bobby Sands and his fellow martyrs taught Margaret Thatcher. If we don’t learn the lessons of history we are condemned to perpetuating the same errors. It’s your call, suckers.

By: the other joe

the other joe — Thu, 03 May 2012 12:11:26 +0000

@Kolumn9 – for your education:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Manchester_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmingham_pub_bombings
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Civilians were the target. The only reason why the bombings stopped in Northern Ireland was that all parties were convinced that their concerns would be brought to the table and discussed as part of the peace plan. Nobody was excluded for being terrorists, those in prison were released, the walls were removed and the peace very largely held. The violence stopped because everyone realised it wasn’t actually advancing anyone’s cause.
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Clearly that point has not been reached inside Israel, which repeats to itself the myth of redemptive violence. Palestinian armed groups are left thinking that they have to respond to show that they’re not ‘weak’ or lacking in masculinity even when they are facing an overpowering enemy. Hence the violence never stops.
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The keys to peace are entirely in the hands of Israel.

By: Kolumn9

Kolumn9 — Thu, 03 May 2012 07:39:09 +0000

Greg, the fact is that the IRA did try to prevent civilian casualties. There was no communal support for killing British civilians and the IRA had to condemn or find excuses when it happened. This is angelic behavior compared to the Palestinian organizations that sought to maximize the deaths of civilians and a society where roughly half (48%) of the population CONTINUES to support attacks on civilians in Israel.
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I admit that regardless of the actual resolution of the conflict in Northern Ireland I would be able to either argue that it continues or that it is only resolved because it is different. That just demonstrates that making historical comparisons to completely different situations isn’t very helpful.
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Adnan is/was a spokesman for Islamic Jihad. The fundamental position of Islamic Jihad is that there is no possible justification for Jews having any sovereignty over what was once Muslim lands or for having control over Muslims. Going on a hunger strike for 60 days isn’t going to change his overall goals vis-a-vis Israel. I don’t know why you place such importance on his pronouncements.

By: Greg Pollock

Greg Pollock — Thu, 03 May 2012 06:22:12 +0000

Kolumn,
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In the UK, the IRA’s advance warnings, which did not always occur, where thought hypocritical, a way “for them to feel good about themselves.” Nor is one assured that the preperation of the bomber will come off on schedule.
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But I find something else to note. I was, in fact, in Tel Aviv, talking with a rather well known Israeli game theorist at the University there, in 96. Everytime we met we talked about the conflict, “my cup of tea,” he would say, my obsession. He said to me there “look at Northern Ireland. That conflict has been going on for over one hundred years. It will never stop. Nor will ours.” But it did stop, save for a few burps even today. It did stop. Since it did, there has to be something differentiating Northern Ireland from Palestine/Israel. If it hadn’t stopped, well, would you not be saying “look at Northern Ireland, in Europe, yet the conflict is over a century old…”
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Our minds are made up, I guess. Both of us can say we fight for a better world for coming children.
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Finally, that the bombings stopped does not necessarily explain why they have not started again. I do indeed think the occupation a major factor in that. But I am willing to consider the possibility that Palestinian society itself might be a factor. Which is why I ask Omar: what exactly is Adnan saying publically since his release? It won’t be hugs for Israel. But what exactly is he saying?

By: Kolumn9

Kolumn9 — Wed, 02 May 2012 22:02:41 +0000

@TOJ, Yeah, I don’t really have to go away since I have read quite a bit about the IRA and conflict in Northern Ireland. You have no idea what you are talking about. By the late 1970s by policy and explicitly the IRA avoided civilian casualties and condemned the deaths of civilians whenever they took place. Even before that the IRA called in warnings before setting them bombs. One can contrast that with the actions of every major Palestinian terrorist group that has attempted to kill as many civilians as possible, with support from their religious leaders and financial support for the families of suicide bombers by the Palestinian Authority.
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Where am I wrong about the Palestinians? The support for killing Israeli civilians? I can point you to polls. The lack of support for any solution under conditions that allow the existence of Israel? I can point you to polls there as well. That the Palestinians ended the suicide bombings because the Israeli reactions were too damaging to the Palestinians? Their leaders say this openly.
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You are also quite wrong about my position on settlements. I don’t think there is anything wrong about them, but would be willing to consider evacuating many of them for peace. But until I see a shift in Palestinian attitudes that makes peace possible I see few reasons to even talk about it except where it might be unilaterally beneficial for Israel from a sustainability point of view.

By: SHLOMO KROL

SHLOMO KROL — Wed, 02 May 2012 10:09:15 +0000

Short google search cleared the things out alittle bit.
First of all, all four mentioned in this article are held in administrative detention. They protest the orders of renewal of administrative detention of them. All of them are members of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

Islamic Jihad is not known as human rights organization, but rather as a terrorist organization. Membership, formal or informal, in a terrorist organization is a criminal offence in many countries.

Administrative detention is authorized by the Geneva Convention. It is also fair to guess that security considerations of Israel do justify preventive detention or detaining people without trial when a trial could expose sensitive information, such as the names of informers or methods of gathering intelligence.

There are however reasons to believe that Israel heavily abuses this tool. That it practices administrative detentions not only as a mean to prevent terrorism, but also as a punishment, deterrence, pressure or to use the detained persons as a bargaining chips. All this is obviously contrary to the international law, however, the very situation of secrecy and of denial of proper defence, as justified as it is, invites all sorts of violations and abuses.

I personally have no sympathy for Islamic Jihad and for those on huger strike, I just see no reason to believe that they are struggling for human rights. They are members of murderous, fundamentalist, antiliberal illegitimate organization, which should be fought against.

On the other hand, I believe that abuse of power by security services is intolerable, but I can’t imagine the mechanisms, which could prevent such abuse.

By: the other joe

the other joe — Wed, 02 May 2012 09:30:40 +0000

@Kolumn9 – with your shaky grasp of the history Irish armed struggle, I don’t know why you bother posting such drivel. The idea that the IRA (and the miriad of other armed paramilitary groups) avoided civilian casualties is rubbish. Go away and read something about the casualties and then come back here and talk.
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And you’re wrong about the Palestinians. But then, given that you and others like you are unwilling to consider the removal of the settlements in the West Bank, we’re never going to know are we?