The Israeli public automatically supports anything done by its military forces. Even abuse by dogs.
Our brave gunmen deployed yesterday (Friday) an unusual weapon in their battle against the Palestinian popular resistance: an attack dog. The IDF canine unit – apparently there is one – sicced a dog on the protesters in Kufr Qaddoum, and it was caught on camera. When Morad Shtawi came to the aid of the wounded protester, he was thrown to the ground, pepper-sprayed and handcuffed.
There is something particularly horrible about the use of an animal against another human being. In the worst case, it reminds you of the arenas in ancient Roman cities; in less worse ones, of Bull Connor and the Alabama police attacking Martin Luther King’s marchers. This won’t surprise many, but judging by the comments in Haaretz (Hebrew), in one of which the commenter is worried lest the dog become “Arabified”, the public stands almost unanimously behind the gunmen. The IDF Spokesman’s comment (“during a violent and iillegal disturbance of order…”) was exceptionally ludicrous, particularly when you remember what “the law in these parts” means in the West Bank.
The gunmen have a large anti-demonstrator arsenal. One of these weapons is the so-called rubber bullet, which is in fact a metal bullet encased in thin rubber. An Israeli demonstrator was shot in the head by one of these in Nabi Saleh yesterday. The ordinary Israeli would claim there is a direct connection between violence by the gunmen and violence by the protesters. They fail to supply the evidence in the case of the dog attack – they need to prove that it attacked the right person, not a random demonstrator. In the Nabi Saleh case, the attack is certainly not accidental. Headshots very rarely are. They are premeditated. The problem is, the IDF has no incentive to prove its innocence. It couldn’t care less about its international image and its home crowd couldn’t care less, and hasn’t in a decade or more.
That wasn’t always the case. During the First Intifada, there was a major scandal when the IDF gunmen were videoed burying some protesters alive. The gunmen of the Givati brigade who beat handcuffed protesters to death went on one trial after another. Colonel Yehuda Meir, who could justly claim to have carried out the unwritten orders of the saint-to-be Yizhak Rabin, “to break the bones” of the protesters (Anti-Rabin cultists greatly resent being reminded of this), was demoted to private and kicked out of the IDF for ordering such torture. The majority preferred to turn a blind eye even then, but a significant part of the public still demanded an end to the brutalization.
Can it be done? Can you actually maintain an “enlightened occupation,” as we used to call it? Metaphorically, it was handcuffing a person – but making sure the handcuffs didn’t chafe his skin, and that they were in front of him, and not behind, and telling yourself this is the best which can be done. It was a lie: the torture chambers of the Israel Security Agency (Shin Beth) were occupied around the clock even before 1987. One of the reasons the “Shin Beth affair,” in which ISA officers murdered two captive Palestinians, ended with a pre-trial pardon was that some of the persons involved threatened to “open their mouths” and tell all they knew about how the ISA actually acted. They were certainly not the last to use this threat. In those days, the concept of an “enlightened occupation” was much derided by the radical left of the time as hypocritical, collaboration with the occupation.
It certainly was. But now we learn that the thin shell of hypocrisy is essential to civilization, and once it breaks, all we are left with is naked violence, always justified by its own existence. We have unleashed the beast, and that is basically all we are left with: Spartans who adamantly defend the actions of their secret police against the Helots, and who keep declaring war on them every year, to keep the atrocities nice and legal. We are left with people who fight endlessly and who justify every abomination – believing they are speaking on behalf of the comradeship of soldiers, and in fact fighting for the privileges of a small elite.
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pabelmont
Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely. How many Israelis would doubt the power, indeed the absolute power, of the IOF and police over Palestinians anywhere within greater Israel?
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If the Israeli law (or military orders, whatever) had not made public meetings (or public protest, again, whatever) illegal — would these police or army actions have been any more difficult for the soldiers/police to perform?
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Where law (limiting military/police action) is not enforced, is not the power of the military/police “absolute”?
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And is it not so here, today?
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And is it not so because the government and (Jewish) people of Israel wish it so?
. If I am right, the Jewish people of Israel have deliberately constructed a regime of absolute corruption.
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Correct me if I’ve got it wrong.
Joshua Frost
“is it not so because the government and (Jewish) people of Israel wish it so?”
No, this is not waht the people of Israel want. The people of Israel do not get to vote on every crime committed by an SOB in a uniform.
Engelbert Luitsz
There is no Israel Lobby, no Zionist influence in many governments, no ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, no attacks on UN headquarters, no massacres in Lebanon or Gaza, no targeted killings all over the world, no murdering of peace activists or demonstrating children, no contempt for international law; there are no Israel-firsters, there is no Breivik’s extended family, all that is fiction. It’s just a tiny enclave of righteous Jews against 7 billion antisemites. Who let the dogs out?
Danendra
@Engelbert AIPAC?
AIG
Engelbert,
You forgot that there was also no Holocaust.
Engelbert Luitsz
AIG, no I didn’t forget. There was, not just a Shoa, a real Holocaust. And we are heading for another one.
AIG
Engelbert,
Of course we are. Every year some doomsayer like you makes a prophecy that Israel is “kaput”.
Meanwhile, Apple opened an R&D center in Israel and is hiring many people.
Engelbert Luitsz
AIG, well then I have to surrender. If Apple comes to the aid of the suffering Zionists paradise is just around the corner.
AIG
Englebert,
You don’t have to surrender, but it would be nice if you made sense.
And Israel is not paradise, but we really have little to complain about as we are ranked 17 on the UN Human Development Report, which is ahead of countries like Belgium, Austria, France and Spain.
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
Bill Pearlman
I understand office rents in Tel Aviv are shooting up. A country known in VC circles has “silicon wadi” While the moslem world is a freaking cesspool
Engelbert Luitsz
AIG “we” in your moral code are the ones who profit from the occupation with the help of the US. Imagine what the Palestinians could have done with billions of dollars every year. And to feel safe when a superpower is behind you. I admit that Israel has done great things in its laboratories, especially in the field of eugenics. But the question you and many others should ask yourself is: is it good for the world, or is it good for Jews only?
AIG
Engelbert,
The Palestinians have received billions of dollars and are part of the Arab world with its TRILLIONS in oil revenues.
And it is time for you to understand that Jews take care of their interests unlike the Chinese for example who always put other people’s interests first. Or the Europeans for that matter. You are quite racist for accusing Jews of putting their own interests first.
Engelbert Luitsz
AIG, I’m not sure I understand you there. Doesn’t every dictator or imperialist or colonialist power put their own interest first? Is it racist to denounce that?
AIG
Engelbert,
Were you talking about a dictator or about the Jewish people? You wrote:
“But the question you and many others should ask yourself is: is it good for the world, or is it good for Jews only?”
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The Jewish people’s collective will (those that are Israelis) is represented through their democratically elected government and it has the full authority, no, the duty, to advance the interests of the Jews in Israel. And that is what every democratic government does. And when you deny this basic right of the Jews, you are being racist. It is quite simple.
directrob
The question is not that Israel has a poor human rights record, economic inequality and poor press freedom. The question is why the Israeli public (and for that matter all Israeli state institutions) do not care about the methods the IDF uses to subdue the Palestinians.
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So AIG was it ok to unleash an attack dog at (lets assume a stone throwing) Palestinian?
Engelbert Luitsz
AIG I for sure don’t hope that the European democracies promote the interests of the Arayan race. What every democratic government should do is to accept diversity: ethnic, racial, cultural, religious. That means that you can marry anyone you like, to name just one thing. The basic right Israel claims to have is like one tribe deciding that it is superior to anyone else, all those who want to be respected as a human being but unfortunately are not Jewish are downgraded to second grade citizens or unwanted aliens. That is not very democratic, is it?
AIG
DIRECTROB,
If you would have lived in Israel through the second intifada you would not have asked this question. The Israeli public has been numbed to indifference about Palestinians by seeing suicide bombers blowing up teenagers in line to enter a disco and other atrocities. Just as the British did not much bother with what happened to Dresden after the Blitz or few Americans shed a tear about nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki and fire bombing Tokyo after Pearl Harbor.
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I know it is not the height of morality but I just can’t bring myself to sympathize with a people who distributed sweets after each successful suicide bombing. I am of course aware that I have a moral lacuna and have to work on myself, but to tell you I have sympathy would be to lie. And most Israelis are like me. It is not good, but quite natural.
AIG
Engelbert,
Your racism really knows no bounds. Israel’s democracy is one of the most advanced in the world. Please return to commenting on stormfront.
Engelbert Luitsz
AIG “Israel’s democracy is one of the most advanced in the world.” You haven’t been around much have you?
It’s probably hard to understand for you, but I have exactly the same aversion towards Stormfront as towards the Zionist project. I believe in another way that does not need supremacy or racism to create a viable community.
aristeides
The trolls did a bangup job of derailing this discussion from IDF crimes to bragging about Israeli’s prosperity, without taking note that it is all based on theft. What do we learn? That Israelis are monsters of selfishness, crowing “I’ve got mine!” and ignoring those who have nothing.
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When they aren’t defending IDF atrocities, they’re pretending they don’t exist.
AIG
Engelbert,
You are living in a bubble. But the facts, oh the facts:
http://www.freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/inline_images/Table%20of%20Independent%20Countries%2C%20FIW%202012%20draft.pdf
Engelbert Luitsz
AIG
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,813 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.
I prefer my bubble to yours any time.
AIG
Engelbert,
Are you sure it is not 24,812? I must have missed one. Yes, the Palestinians are all saints, I know. They would never demolish a home, they shoot rockets at them to redecorate them.
Engelbert Luitsz
AIG, well, denial is a potent agent. If you don’t want to know, you will not know. I feel sorry for you, in WW II not all collaborators were bad people. The system sucks you in and you are unable to get another perspective on reality. If you have a bicycle, get on it and confront the terrorists. You will not find what you expected.
Steve
DIRECTROB wrote: “The question is not that Israel has a poor human rights record, economic inequality and poor press freedom.”
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Israel’s human rights record within Israel is pretty great, actually. ANd Israel has some of the BEST press freedom in the world.
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DirectRob is dishonest, and unfairly biased against Israel.
Steve
ARISTEIDES is not here to discuss REALITY. He’s just here to exaggerate against Israel. And accomplish… nothing.
Clif Brown
As was shown in the Milgram experiments, when people are given absolute power over others, they will do things that even they would not have considered doing, and easily. This was shown at Abu Ghraib – cruelty just as a lark.
I’m reminded of this from your comment that things have changed for the worse. Every encounter is a test – if there is no objection, no repercussion, then in the future something a little more extreme will be tried. Having a prime minister dictating to the President of the United States tends to build a feeling of impunity among those the PM represents.
As for dogs, they have appeal for control because they are fearsome in a way that even live fire is not. A bullet is invisible until you are hit, while a vicious animal with fangs bared taps into visceral fear that antedates civilization. A bullet doesn’t look at you in a crazed rage.
Yossi Gurvitz
LOL!
Steve
Israel respects human rights far more than almost any other middle east country, most than almost every country in Africa, more than almost any country in south or central america, and more than some eastern european countries.
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ESPECIALLY within Israel.
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As for the Palestinian territories, they’re in a state of war against Israel, as are several of the countries directly neighboring Israel. Only a dishonest person would not take this into account.
Yossi Gurvitz
So your standard of human rights is Middle Eastern dictatorships, former dictatorships in Africa and eastern Europe? Good to know. Me, I’ll stick with the usual yardstick of Europe and the US.
The Palestinians are not in a “war” with Israel, they have been occupied by it and are rebelling against it. You also neglected to mention that Israel has for all practical reasons embedded an apartheid system in the OT (two systems of laws, one for settlers, one for their neighbours).
But even within Israel, your comment is deceptive in the extreme. Israel ranks with Iran and Saudi Arabia in religious freedom, we don’t have a constitution or a bill of rights and our Basic Laws specifically omit the right to equality. You forgot to mention Israel has an official state ideology, and that people deviating from it – anyone who thinks that the absurd and contradictory concept of “Jewish and democratic” should be abolished – cannot run for the Knesset. Great human rights? Compared to Egypt, maybe.
Steve
YOSSI GURVITZ wrote: So your standard of human rights is Middle Eastern dictatorships, former dictatorships in Africa and eastern Europe?
My Response: My standard of human rights is EARTH. And Israel respects human rights more than the VAST MAJORITY of countries on this planet.
YOSSI GURVITZ wrote: The Palestinians are not in a “war” with Israel, they have been occupied by it and are rebelling against it.
My Response: Hamas are at war with Israel, and the vast majority of Palestinians chose to vote for Hamas in elections.
YOSSI GURVITZ wrote: Israel ranks with Iran and Saudi Arabia in religious freedom
My response: That’s an insane and dishonest statement. Why are you lying to yourself and to others by typing such nonsense?
YOSSI GURVITZ wrote: the absurd and contradictory concept of “Jewish and democratic” should be abolished
My response: No. Israel is a Jewish state, and it is “democratic” because the majority get to decide what happens with the country. Sorry for you that Israel is a Jewish state. Maybe you should go move to a Muslim state where you’ll be more comfortable.
YOSSI GURVITZ wrote: Great human rights? Compared to Egypt, maybe.
My Response: Correct. Israel has a great human rights record compared to Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, etc. Israel has a better human rights record than ALL THE COUNTRIEs that people like you NEVER CRITICIZE because you are too busy INSULTING ISRAEL for having trouble making friends with crazed Arab dictatorship countries.
Yossi Gurvitz
I see. So you won’t mind if we change Israel’s motto to reflect reality: “Israel – not quite a democracy in the Middle East, but still way better than Syria”?
Those elections were held in 2006. They are invalid for a long time. Would you say that most Americans support Bush? Hey, they voted for him in 2004.
Nonsense? Ok. I hope your understanding of Hebrew is half as inflated as your patriotism, and after you finish reading, I expect an apology. http://hiddush.org.il/%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%A8-2996-0-%D7%92%D7%9D_%D7%9C%D7%A7%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%98%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9C_%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%94_%D7%90%D7%AA_%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%9F.aspx
You are ignoring my point: it is illegal to try and change the definition. A country which defines itself in opposition to a large minority of its citizens, and does not allow for a peaceful change of this definition, cannot be considered democratic.
To sum, for all your bluster, I think I am the greater patriot. I think we should and can become something better than a a Middle Eastern polity. Your Jewish supremacy will not allow you to support that.
aristeides
I’m waiting for Steve to die and come back to life as an Arab in Israel. I’ll expect a report.
Philos
Yossi G. Do you mind providing a link (if any exist) to the video footage of the Givati burying Palestinian prisoners alive? I have read quite a few articles on Col. Yehuda Meir now, and seen the video of reservists breaking the arms of Palestinians with rocks. I was not aware of the serial atrocities perpetrated by the Givati.
AIG
Yossi,
How is what Clinton saying relevant to your point? Yes, there are some people in Israel that have antiquated views regarding women. So what? Do we have laws like Iran or Saudi that make women dress in certain ways or not allow them to do certain things? We don’t.
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And I really do not understand your point about a Jewish state. Israel was founded as a Jewish state. If you do not like this concept, you are free to go to any other state. If you want to label Israel not democratic because of that, you are welcome but you should not be surprised that so few Jews support your position. There are many democratic states in the world. There is only one Jewish state. If the Jewish state is not democratic enough for you, no one is holding you here.
AIG
ARISTEIDES,
I am not saying there is full equality but a little common sense is warranted. Arab Israelis have the standard of living and freedoms most people in India or China or Syria or Egypt can only dream of. They have free health care of high quality that tens of millions of Americans do not have. Again, there is room for improvement but to paint the situation as dire is just extremism. Anyone can visit any Arab village in Israel and see for himself.
Steve
I wrote: “Israel is a Jewish state, and it is “democratic” because the majority get to decide what happens with the country. Sorry for you that Israel is a Jewish state. Maybe you should go move to a Muslim state where you’ll be more comfortable.”
YOSSI GURVITZ wrote: You are ignoring my point: it is illegal to try and change the definition. A country which defines itself in opposition to a large minority of its citizens, and does not allow for a peaceful change of this definition, cannot be considered democratic. To sum, for all your bluster, I think I am the greater patriot. I think we should and can become something better than a a Middle Eastern polity. Your Jewish supremacy will not allow you to support that.”
My response: Israel has not “tried to change the definition.” Israel was founded for the purpose of being a Jewish state. Israel has been a Jewish state this entire time. Israel will always be a Jewish state. That is why Israel exists. THere is no “Jewish supremacy” involved in this. The Jewish people have a homeland. JEws have the right to pursue nationalism like everybody else, and they did, and that’s why Israel exists. If some people want to be BIGOTED against Jews and declare that Jewish nationalism is the only wrong nationalism in the world but Arabs get to pursue nationalism, Palesitnians get to pursue nationalism, Muslims get to pursue nationalism, the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, etc. all get to be nationalistic in their ethnic-focused states, etc. etc. then then that’s their own problem.
aristeides
AIG – my point is that some common sense would raise the quality of Steve’s posts from 0.
Steve
If it’s OK for Muslim states to be Muslim states (which blatantly favor Muslims over everyone else), it’s OK for Israel to be a Jewish state.
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If nationalism is OK for Arabs, Muslims, Palestinians, etc. then it’s OK for Jews/Israel.
Greg Pollock
“Can it be done? Can you actually maintain an “enlightened occupation,” as we used to call it?”
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No more than enlightened slavery. Perhaps YHWH is punishing Israel through victory. It’s not easy to be god.
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I think AIG, above, right that the suicide bombings of the past cannot be ignored. I think he is wrong that they were uniformly cheered by Palestinians; that is a racist conjecture.
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If you want to end this, both sides must see what they are doing–to themselves. Praising a dog attack portends ill on that.
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Steve, read the Israeli Declaration of Indpendence. It’s very patriotic to do so, and it might give you something to think about.
ygurvitz
Steve, still waiting for your apology for saying I lied when I didn’t.
Steve
YOSSI GURVITZ wrote: Israel ranks with Iran and Saudi Arabia in religious freedom
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My response: That’s an INSANE thing to say, and everyone knows it.
Steve
Yossi, please go move to Saudi Arabia and practice Judaism in public there. And tell us how it goes for you.
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Love for you to do that. It would give you far less time to spend your life trying to promote hate of Israel.
ygurvitz
No, sir. That’s not what you wrote. Here is what you wrote:
ygurvitz
I’m not a Jew. Why should I practice this corrupt and corrupting religion anywhere, let alone in Saudi Arabia?