Comments on: An essential sense of urgency: On Peter Beinart’s ‘The Crisis of Zionism’

By: Mareli

Mareli — Tue, 15 May 2012 06:03:57 +0000

I have just finished reading Beinart’s book and find that his concerns mirror those of many of my Jewish friends, all of whom are liberal in their politics. Some of them say that their relatives who live in Israel have been at sword’s points regarding the settlements if they are still communicating at all. The occupation has been worse for Israel in some ways than it has been for the Palestinians in that it has done spiritual damage to the people, particularly the young. I do not support Beinart’s call for government support of religious schools because I believe the US constitution forbids that, and I do not like the “creeping religious support” by government of religious schools that the courts have, I believe wrongfully, allowed in recent rulings. Religious education should be provided by the family and the religious community, not by the government. The problem of Jewish education in the US that Beinart addresses would not be solved by government aid; it could even aggravate the problem since politics would likely become involved, and that is a sticky business.

By: Cvale

Cvale — Sun, 22 Apr 2012 14:34:05 +0000

I find it interesting too, that there was much opposition from ZIonists in general ( very broad term I know) to the founding of an Israeli State as far back as days of founding father Thedor Herzel and his manifesto “Der Judenstatt” at the turn of the 20th century. Post WWII Rebbi Teitelbaum likened an Israeli State to that of an act of Satan himself. Many an orthodox Jew, including Hasidic’s were in deep opposition to an Israeli State. No doubt the carnage of WWII strengthened those in favor of an established state and in light of those horrific events much of the opposition either slinked away quietly or acquiesced to what they saw as the inevitable.
Sadly for most of us in the West, we rarely hear of Israeli opposition to settlement activity, the news of which is effectively squelched by the minions of Hasbaran adherents who for the most part have seen unprecedented success in espousing the view that Israel is ALWAYS the victim and never the victimizer.
I am more than pleased that we have sites like ” 972mag” to at least present the alternative viewpoint and help me realize that the Israel political dynamic is not monolithic in thought or deed !

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 19:53:42 +0000

Noam,
Collective consciousness is the means by which change in interpersonal relations, change in elections, change in policies, change in political form come about.

Its what forms will, both individual and collective will.

And, therefore it is the fundamental area that dissent needs to focus, to change hearts and minds.

“just that trying to “convince” won’t work”. You don’t know that. That is your fear. You can predict the future? You can justify boycotting from your best effort to persuade?

By: Noam Sheizaf

Noam Sheizaf — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 18:17:46 +0000

@RICHARD WITTY: I don’t advocate passive approach – just that trying to “convince” won’t work. but there is more to politics than this.

By: Dena Shunra

Dena Shunra — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 17:54:12 +0000

@Caden, you’re making some unwarranted assumptions about me. Stop that.

As to what a democratically elected person can do in Israel at this point? Good question. How about building a coalition that includes the Arab parties & Knesset members (replacing the Jewish nationalists) and working to dismantle the organized racism at ever level? Opening up positions of power and decision-making to Palestinians with Israeli citizenship?
Putting in place the Likud program to declare the occupied territories as part of Israel (applying Israeli law) AND HOLDING ELECTIONS THAT INCLUDE THE FULL POPULATION controlled by Israel, not just the ones in the ’48 territories?
Oh, and lifting the race-based misallocation of water and the race-based road restrictions. That would be good, too.

It would be a start, and requires no powers N’hu doesn’t yet have.

By: caden

caden — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 11:05:12 +0000

Dena, I’m not asking you to do anything. And I can’t think of anybody who loves the current situation. So, let me ask you this. If you were in Netanyahu’s seat what would you do.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 01:25:53 +0000

On American Jews’ role. Being only an American Jew, and not an Israeli, I find the dismissal of American Jewish opinion to be insulting.

American Jewish opinion is diverse. The only criticism that I can believe is that diversity adopts a stranger’s selective mythology, rather than an intimate’s selective mythology.

By: Richard Witty

Richard Witty — Sat, 21 Apr 2012 01:21:11 +0000

“but since political reality creates ideology (and not the other way around)”

Noam,
I find that to be a ludicrous and powerless formula.

Powerless for the inevitable passivity to political form (Marx at least described the passivity relative to economic relations – owners/workers).

If consciousness is not the driver, then no movement is ever possible, only the status quo.

I can’t imagine that you believe that.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you.

By: Dena Shunra

Dena Shunra — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 21:18:03 +0000

That’s the best and clearest statement I’ve seen of that strange (to me) view that American Jews have of Israel.

Well put.

I find it especially infuriating they seem prepared to have my friends and family stake the claim for the American Jews, until the last drop of my friends’ and family’s blood – they seem to care nothing for the ACTUAL people holding the place for them in Israel, nor for the people in Palestine being dispossessed – it’s is as though many American Jews want to hold the current situation in stasis out of a selfish desire to have a back-up place to live.
And for this, they’re prepared to sacrifice everything other people have and are.

I find that attitude abhorrent.

By: Harvey Stein

Harvey Stein — Fri, 20 Apr 2012 19:39:57 +0000

@Jack – I think you’re right, although I have to say that “siege mentality” is a bit reductive. As a Jew who has paid some attention to Jewish/Israeli psychosocial behavior, I think that unfortunately it goes a littledeeper than “mentality”. I think media indoctrination is pretty universal though, used to control populations almost globally these days.

@Noam – I’m not sure I agree. After studying and practicing various forms of buddhism, and also witnessing/studying various changes of identity (from Malcolm X, to various Palestinian friends who spent years in prison), it seems to me that one way to become aware of identity construction is to remove oneself from the “world” for a while. Also, in a small, tightly “familial” country like Israel, I think a leader (whether a coward like Bibi, or a hero like Rabin) can very easily sway a large percentage of the population.

Whether the occupation creates ideology, or ideology creates the occupation, identity is habitually reinforced countless times a day. The problem is to break the habits. It can happen in many way (including some kind of big shock), but unfortunately I don’t think we can simply “end the occupation.”