Comments on: Controversy over Israeli envoy’s address at gay rights forum http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Thu, 23 May 2013 09:32:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Anonymous http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60580 Anonymous Wed, 09 May 2012 14:25:34 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60580 When the topic is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel's supporters should not drag in LGBT rights. . But when the topic is LGBT rights, Israel's detractors should not drag in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. . Sound fair? When the topic is the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Israel’s supporters should not drag in LGBT rights.
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But when the topic is LGBT rights, Israel’s detractors should not drag in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
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Sound fair?

]]> By: max http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60501 max Tue, 08 May 2012 21:44:44 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60501 You seem easy to convince, Shlomo, by an article that can be summarized as confronting "the multi-dimensionality of Palestinian society" with Israel's "conservative and especially religious politicians remain fiercely homophobic." . Branding isn't pinkwashing, when it underlines the truth. And the truth is that Israel's laws haven't changed since the branding 'project', and that gay parades have marched before. . Israel's attitude towards the LGBT community places it with the 'West', while Palestinians' attitude - as Palestinian correctly wrote in another post - is that of a taboo. . And all this is irrelevant to the Palestinian-Israeli problem. You seem easy to convince, Shlomo, by an article that can be summarized as confronting “the multi-dimensionality of Palestinian society” with Israel’s “conservative and especially religious politicians remain fiercely homophobic.”
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Branding isn’t pinkwashing, when it underlines the truth. And the truth is that Israel’s laws haven’t changed since the branding ‘project’, and that gay parades have marched before.
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Israel’s attitude towards the LGBT community places it with the ‘West’, while Palestinians’ attitude – as Palestinian correctly wrote in another post – is that of a taboo.
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And all this is irrelevant to the Palestinian-Israeli problem.

]]> By: Shlomo Krol http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60418 Shlomo Krol Tue, 08 May 2012 11:36:22 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60418 Thank you, Tsipi, I stand corrected. It seems to be indeed government sponsored campaign. Of course it must be opposed. I think, that boycotting LGBT in Israel is wrong, because, as I wrote in the previous post, it's just the mirror image of the "pinkwashing" demagoguery. The linkage between these issues must be broken: the gay rights and the relative liberalism of Israel (which is, some say, eroding now) do not justify its policies vis-a-vis Palestinians. These issues are not related. Thank you, Tsipi, I stand corrected. It seems to be indeed government sponsored campaign. Of course it must be opposed. I think, that boycotting LGBT in Israel is wrong, because, as I wrote in the previous post, it’s just the mirror image of the “pinkwashing” demagoguery. The linkage between these issues must be broken: the gay rights and the relative liberalism of Israel (which is, some say, eroding now) do not justify its policies vis-a-vis Palestinians. These issues are not related.

]]> By: Tsipi http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60406 Tsipi Tue, 08 May 2012 09:53:39 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60406 Shlomo, you are wrong (you asked to be corrected). David Saranga, a high-up in the Foreign Ministry, is one of the architects of the strategy, and has bragged about it repeatedly, and even presents its successes as a case study in courses he guest lectures in. More information on this can be found here http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarah-schulman/israel-pinkwashing_b_1132369.html Shlomo, you are wrong (you asked to be corrected). David Saranga, a high-up in the Foreign Ministry, is one of the architects of the strategy, and has bragged about it repeatedly, and even presents its successes as a case study in courses he guest lectures in.

More information on this can be found here
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sarah-schulman/israel-pinkwashing_b_1132369.html

]]> By: Shlomo Krol http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60401 Shlomo Krol Tue, 08 May 2012 09:11:22 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60401 I don't think that "pinkwashing" has ever been "official" Israeli PR policy (correct me if I'm wrong). It rather exists in talkbacks of the homegrown propagandists, who receive their inspiration, I think, from the European anti-immigration populists Pim Fortuyne style. The claim that human rights are one package and therefore it's either all or nothing is simplistic one. There are imperfect things in this world. - Those who boycott Israeli gay community create a linckage between Israeli treatment of Palestinians and gay rights and this is the mirror image of those talkback propagandists who respond to the accusation of apartheid: "But we treat gays well". - This is the same logic of "it's either all or nothing", based on very deeply ingrained in all cultures way of thinking by binary opposition of "good" and "bad", "us" and "them" etc. If Israel treats gays well, this logic goes, it's impossible that Israel would treat Palestinians wrongly, because it means that Israel is "good". And if Israel still does this or that to Palestinians, they are to blame themselves, because they treat gays wrongly and it means that they are "bad". - The logic of the boycotters is the mirror image of this logic, but it is based on the same pattern of thinking by binary oppositions. If Israel treats Palestinians wrongly, it cannot be that it treats gays well, because all human rights stem from one and the same respect for human dignity and freedom, and if Israel treats Palestnians the way it treats them, it is "bad" and it cannot be that it respects gays. And if the fact say that gays enjoy considerable rights in Israel - it is surely not genuine, but only for PR purposes. - All this is an obvious simplification. If we use this logic of binary oppositions, of all or nothing, of good guys vs. bad guys, we might say that because of poor record of Palestinians in the realm of gay rights we should not support Palestinian right for self determination and rights. This is in fact what the "pinkwashing" propagandists say. - The proper way of dealing with the issue is to break the linkage. Israel should be commended for its relative tolerance toward gays (and criticized when it fails to uphold their right). But this is by no way an excuse for the apartheid, occupation, colonization, inequality and discrimination within Israel and other ills of the Israeli society. - Palestinians should be supported in their struggle for self determination and rights, but should be criticized for human rights violations, such as the relative intolerance toward gays and for other ills of the Palestinian society. I don’t think that “pinkwashing” has ever been “official” Israeli PR policy (correct me if I’m wrong). It rather exists in talkbacks of the homegrown propagandists, who receive their inspiration, I think, from the European anti-immigration populists Pim Fortuyne style.
The claim that human rights are one package and therefore it’s either all or nothing is simplistic one. There are imperfect things in this world.
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Those who boycott Israeli gay community create a linckage between Israeli treatment of Palestinians and gay rights and this is the mirror image of those talkback propagandists who respond to the accusation of apartheid: “But we treat gays well”.
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This is the same logic of “it’s either all or nothing”, based on very deeply ingrained in all cultures way of thinking by binary opposition of “good” and “bad”, “us” and “them” etc. If Israel treats gays well, this logic goes, it’s impossible that Israel would treat Palestinians wrongly, because it means that Israel is “good”. And if Israel still does this or that to Palestinians, they are to blame themselves, because they treat gays wrongly and it means that they are “bad”.
-
The logic of the boycotters is the mirror image of this logic, but it is based on the same pattern of thinking by binary oppositions. If Israel treats Palestinians wrongly, it cannot be that it treats gays well, because all human rights stem from one and the same respect for human dignity and freedom, and if Israel treats Palestnians the way it treats them, it is “bad” and it cannot be that it respects gays. And if the fact say that gays enjoy considerable rights in Israel – it is surely not genuine, but only for PR purposes.
-
All this is an obvious simplification. If we use this logic of binary oppositions, of all or nothing, of good guys vs. bad guys, we might say that because of poor record of Palestinians in the realm of gay rights we should not support Palestinian right for self determination and rights. This is in fact what the “pinkwashing” propagandists say.
-
The proper way of dealing with the issue is to break the linkage. Israel should be commended for its relative tolerance toward gays (and criticized when it fails to uphold their right). But this is by no way an excuse for the apartheid, occupation, colonization, inequality and discrimination within Israel and other ills of the Israeli society.
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Palestinians should be supported in their struggle for self determination and rights, but should be criticized for human rights violations, such as the relative intolerance toward gays and for other ills of the Palestinian society.

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60375 sh Tue, 08 May 2012 05:55:44 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60375 India's been independent for about as long as Israel has? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_India South Africa got rid of apartheid in 1994 or thereabouts? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_South_Africa What Palestinians think about gay rights at this moment in time is their business, not Israel's. Putting cart before horse is of great interest to those who wish to impede the progress of the cart, but, to mix metaphors like only idiots do, I don't see why the intelligent would fiddle while Rome burns. Neither, it seems, does the Columbia professor in the clip. Enlighten me. India’s been independent for about as long as Israel has?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_India

South Africa got rid of apartheid in 1994 or thereabouts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_South_Africa

What Palestinians think about gay rights at this moment in time is their business, not Israel’s. Putting cart before horse is of great interest to those who wish to impede the progress of the cart, but, to mix metaphors like only idiots do, I don’t see why the intelligent would fiddle while Rome burns. Neither, it seems, does the Columbia professor in the clip. Enlighten me.

]]> By: max http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60373 max Tue, 08 May 2012 05:28:13 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60373 So one is to link Israel's abuse of Palestinian rights to its support of gay rights, but not link Palestinians' abuse of gay rights to its struggle for own rights? One may need to be very intelligent to explain. So one is to link Israel’s abuse of Palestinian rights to its support of gay rights, but not link Palestinians’ abuse of gay rights to its struggle for own rights?
One may need to be very intelligent to explain.

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60371 sh Tue, 08 May 2012 04:59:53 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60371 I actually did understand that, Sinjim, but wonder (to put it mildly) at the wisdom of connecting all injustices together when hope for success on all fronts just distances success on a particular burning issue. Would doing that have vanquished apartheid in South Africa or colonial rule in India (to use the two examples that are used most frequently by the left in relation to Israel)? I actually did understand that, Sinjim, but wonder (to put it mildly) at the wisdom of connecting all injustices together when hope for success on all fronts just distances success on a particular burning issue. Would doing that have vanquished apartheid in South Africa or colonial rule in India (to use the two examples that are used most frequently by the left in relation to Israel)?

]]> By: Rodrigo http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60361 Rodrigo Tue, 08 May 2012 02:13:25 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60361 Oh, look.. Another example of the inability of the extreme left to celebrate anything about Israel. Oh, look.. Another example of the inability of the extreme left to celebrate anything about Israel.

]]> By: caden http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-keynotes-at-gay-rights-forum-featuring-israel/44899/comment-page-1/#comment-60355 caden Tue, 08 May 2012 01:00:43 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=44899#comment-60355 Sinjim, Not often that you read such inspired crap. I'm actually kind of impressed Sinjim, Not often that you read such inspired crap. I’m actually kind of impressed

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