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	<title>Comments on: Ambassador Oren boasts Israel&#8217;s record on gay rights &#8211; but gets facts wrong</title>
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	<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/</link>
	<description>Independent commentary and news from Israel &#38; Palestine</description>
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		<title>By: Jack</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/comment-page-1/#comment-60445</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 14:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=44851#comment-60445</guid>
		<description>If this is the best hasbara-artist there is in america, world has nothing to fear.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this is the best hasbara-artist there is in america, world has nothing to fear.</p>
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		<title>By: Rafael Frankel</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/comment-page-1/#comment-60441</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafael Frankel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 14:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=44851#comment-60441</guid>
		<description>As three previous readers have pointed out, your comment &quot;After all, he is an immigrant wo doesn&#039;t know the country well&quot; is really over the line. Having made aliyah in the late 1970s, he the Ambassador has lived in this country as an adult longer than you have!

He fought in the Lebanon War in Beirut in a unit that took heavy casualties. He raised his children here. Aside from a coule years spent in the US pursuing his Ph.D. and now as ambassador, he has lived here ever since making aliyah. And, yes, he gave up his American citizenship to serve as ambassador. 

If that doesn&#039;t make him &quot;Israeli&quot; enough, then what would??

You may not like what he writes or says, or the &quot;hasbara&quot; he does on behalf of the government--fair enough. But criticizing him for being an immigrant??  In a country of immigrants, are you freakin&#039; kidding me??  The tolerant left, indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As three previous readers have pointed out, your comment &#8220;After all, he is an immigrant wo doesn&#8217;t know the country well&#8221; is really over the line. Having made aliyah in the late 1970s, he the Ambassador has lived in this country as an adult longer than you have!</p>
<p>He fought in the Lebanon War in Beirut in a unit that took heavy casualties. He raised his children here. Aside from a coule years spent in the US pursuing his Ph.D. and now as ambassador, he has lived here ever since making aliyah. And, yes, he gave up his American citizenship to serve as ambassador. </p>
<p>If that doesn&#8217;t make him &#8220;Israeli&#8221; enough, then what would??</p>
<p>You may not like what he writes or says, or the &#8220;hasbara&#8221; he does on behalf of the government&#8211;fair enough. But criticizing him for being an immigrant??  In a country of immigrants, are you freakin&#8217; kidding me??  The tolerant left, indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: occupier1967</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/comment-page-1/#comment-60435</link>
		<dc:creator>occupier1967</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 13:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=44851#comment-60435</guid>
		<description>&quot;After all, he is an immigrant.&quot; Ah, the tolerant left. I thought you loved immigrants. It&#039;s the height of irony to hear all my leftist friends say things like: &quot;What does Lieberman know? He&#039;s just a dirty immigrant!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;After all, he is an immigrant.&#8221; Ah, the tolerant left. I thought you loved immigrants. It&#8217;s the height of irony to hear all my leftist friends say things like: &#8220;What does Lieberman know? He&#8217;s just a dirty immigrant!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mitchell Cohen</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/comment-page-1/#comment-60387</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitchell Cohen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2012 07:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=44851#comment-60387</guid>
		<description>&quot;After all, he is an immigrant who doesn’t know the country well.&quot; [End of Quote]

Whatever you think of Oren&#039;s politics and stances, he made aliyah 33 years ago and served in the IDF as a paratrooper (including in the Lebanon War, where most of his unit was wounded). I think he is qualified as knowing the country quite well. Certainly more so than some of the columnists who have been in Israel less than ten years, but because their views jive with 972&#039;s you don&#039;t seem to have a problem with them advertising themselves as &quot;Israeli journalists&quot; (as if they are not &quot;immigrants&quot;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;After all, he is an immigrant who doesn’t know the country well.&#8221; [End of Quote]</p>
<p>Whatever you think of Oren&#8217;s politics and stances, he made aliyah 33 years ago and served in the IDF as a paratrooper (including in the Lebanon War, where most of his unit was wounded). I think he is qualified as knowing the country quite well. Certainly more so than some of the columnists who have been in Israel less than ten years, but because their views jive with 972&#8242;s you don&#8217;t seem to have a problem with them advertising themselves as &#8220;Israeli journalists&#8221; (as if they are not &#8220;immigrants&#8221;).</p>
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		<title>By: Tsipi</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/comment-page-1/#comment-60343</link>
		<dc:creator>Tsipi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2012 22:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=44851#comment-60343</guid>
		<description>A few additional points to consider on this front:

1. Israel has no (or next to no) legislation granting equality to LGBT folk. Even the abolishing in 1988 of the clause prohibiting homosexual sex was done by trickery (an aide from the opposition &quot;accidentally on purpose&quot; dropped the relevant clause from the bill before the 3rd reading of the law, and it passed without it, an act that could not realistically be undone.

2. Thus, the vast majority of LGBT rights have been granted by the courts, not the state. As a matter of fact, in many seminal court cases the state was the oppositional party to the suit.

3. The whole rhetoric represented by the Oren interview and keynote speech at the Philadelphia convention is part of a purposefully conceived plan called PINKWASHING. The gov&#039;t doesn&#039;t call it that, but what it includes is certainly purposeful (one of the architects of the policy, David Saranga, actually presented this policy as a case study in an Internet marketing course I attended, and bragged about it). 

Pinkwashing is the policy of highlighting Israel&#039;s relatively positive record on LGBT rights to deflect attention from more problematic issues -- like the occupation. 

When Oren conflates terrorism or Arab-Israeli wars with gay rights, he is unintentionally (or intentionally? Hard to keep track) forgetting to keep this strategy secret.

4. Given the above (and below), it is rather ridiculous for this particular government to be brandishing about gay rights, which they have basically done nothing to promote or ensure. But the 1967/1988 untruth is hardly his most egregious. He claimed in his interview that Palestinian LGBT folk are so persecuted in their own community, that Israel must give them shelter. 

This is such a blatant lie I actually lose my breath writing about it. Israel has NEVER granted a Palestinian LGBT person shelter. EVER. (Just like they have NEVER granted refugee status to African refugees, but that doesn&#039;t prevent them for taking humanitarian credit...). Oren also claims that the proof of this claim is that Palestinian queer groups like alQaws operate OUT OF ISRAEL. Though of course, if you ask alQaws they are operating out of Palestine (in east Jerusalem). 

5. I wouldn&#039;t put aside so easily the claims of &quot;Israel fought for gay rights...&quot; as the less important aspect of Oren&#039;s statements. This type of statement emphasizes all that is wrong and twisted in what our representatives&#039; thinking: Israel is THE STATE. The sovereign. If Israel wanted gays to have rights THEY WOULD GRANT THOSE RIGHTS. Who exactly does a sovereign state need to &quot;fight&quot; for gay rights? The Arabs? In 1967? And what&#039;s the connection to blowing up cafes and buses? Is that also before 1967? Or has he now moved to the post-Oslo spate of attacks of 10-12 years ago (which sounds more like it)? So did Israel always have gay rights? Or were they fighting for those rights? 

There is no consistency or logic in any of this -- just an attempt to paint Israel as constantly under attack, as the brave fighter for justice, and as the liberal protector of rights, all at the same time. And facts be damned.

6. Finally, Oren was on his way to give a keynote speech at an *LGBTQ* conference. His constant reference to &quot;gay rights&quot; shows how shallow and limited his understanding is of the very issue he supposedly champions, because seriously, no one who understands ANYTHING about queer or LGBT issues says &quot;gay rights&quot;. &quot;Gay rights&quot; are hardly the issue.

(Yossi, I&#039;m sending you a meme and post I made on this topic that has gone rather viral on twitter and FB, don&#039;t know what your links policy here is...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few additional points to consider on this front:</p>
<p>1. Israel has no (or next to no) legislation granting equality to LGBT folk. Even the abolishing in 1988 of the clause prohibiting homosexual sex was done by trickery (an aide from the opposition &#8220;accidentally on purpose&#8221; dropped the relevant clause from the bill before the 3rd reading of the law, and it passed without it, an act that could not realistically be undone.</p>
<p>2. Thus, the vast majority of LGBT rights have been granted by the courts, not the state. As a matter of fact, in many seminal court cases the state was the oppositional party to the suit.</p>
<p>3. The whole rhetoric represented by the Oren interview and keynote speech at the Philadelphia convention is part of a purposefully conceived plan called PINKWASHING. The gov&#8217;t doesn&#8217;t call it that, but what it includes is certainly purposeful (one of the architects of the policy, David Saranga, actually presented this policy as a case study in an Internet marketing course I attended, and bragged about it). </p>
<p>Pinkwashing is the policy of highlighting Israel&#8217;s relatively positive record on LGBT rights to deflect attention from more problematic issues &#8212; like the occupation. </p>
<p>When Oren conflates terrorism or Arab-Israeli wars with gay rights, he is unintentionally (or intentionally? Hard to keep track) forgetting to keep this strategy secret.</p>
<p>4. Given the above (and below), it is rather ridiculous for this particular government to be brandishing about gay rights, which they have basically done nothing to promote or ensure. But the 1967/1988 untruth is hardly his most egregious. He claimed in his interview that Palestinian LGBT folk are so persecuted in their own community, that Israel must give them shelter. </p>
<p>This is such a blatant lie I actually lose my breath writing about it. Israel has NEVER granted a Palestinian LGBT person shelter. EVER. (Just like they have NEVER granted refugee status to African refugees, but that doesn&#8217;t prevent them for taking humanitarian credit&#8230;). Oren also claims that the proof of this claim is that Palestinian queer groups like alQaws operate OUT OF ISRAEL. Though of course, if you ask alQaws they are operating out of Palestine (in east Jerusalem). </p>
<p>5. I wouldn&#8217;t put aside so easily the claims of &#8220;Israel fought for gay rights&#8230;&#8221; as the less important aspect of Oren&#8217;s statements. This type of statement emphasizes all that is wrong and twisted in what our representatives&#8217; thinking: Israel is THE STATE. The sovereign. If Israel wanted gays to have rights THEY WOULD GRANT THOSE RIGHTS. Who exactly does a sovereign state need to &#8220;fight&#8221; for gay rights? The Arabs? In 1967? And what&#8217;s the connection to blowing up cafes and buses? Is that also before 1967? Or has he now moved to the post-Oslo spate of attacks of 10-12 years ago (which sounds more like it)? So did Israel always have gay rights? Or were they fighting for those rights? </p>
<p>There is no consistency or logic in any of this &#8212; just an attempt to paint Israel as constantly under attack, as the brave fighter for justice, and as the liberal protector of rights, all at the same time. And facts be damned.</p>
<p>6. Finally, Oren was on his way to give a keynote speech at an *LGBTQ* conference. His constant reference to &#8220;gay rights&#8221; shows how shallow and limited his understanding is of the very issue he supposedly champions, because seriously, no one who understands ANYTHING about queer or LGBT issues says &#8220;gay rights&#8221;. &#8220;Gay rights&#8221; are hardly the issue.</p>
<p>(Yossi, I&#8217;m sending you a meme and post I made on this topic that has gone rather viral on twitter and FB, don&#8217;t know what your links policy here is&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Caro</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/comment-page-1/#comment-60337</link>
		<dc:creator>Caro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2012 22:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=44851#comment-60337</guid>
		<description>He gave up his US citizenship he is an Israeli! He is one of the best historians with a huge breadth of knowledge and love of the country which you lot would do well to emulate!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He gave up his US citizenship he is an Israeli! He is one of the best historians with a huge breadth of knowledge and love of the country which you lot would do well to emulate!</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/comment-page-1/#comment-60304</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2012 17:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=44851#comment-60304</guid>
		<description>I think it&#039;s unfair to say that gay rights in Israel is as bad as you make out.

Yes, perhaps in the past it was difficult - where wasn&#039;t it? - but, for the sake of decent journalism -, the positives and advances of the LGBT movement, both politically and socially, really should be included in this article.

Where is the mention of recognition of same-sex marriages performed abroad? Or same-sex adoption rights? Or the increased visibility and acceptance of non-heterosexuality in the major cities (perhaps excluding Jerusalem) during the 51 weeks of the year when Gay Pride doesn&#039;t take over?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s unfair to say that gay rights in Israel is as bad as you make out.</p>
<p>Yes, perhaps in the past it was difficult &#8211; where wasn&#8217;t it? &#8211; but, for the sake of decent journalism -, the positives and advances of the LGBT movement, both politically and socially, really should be included in this article.</p>
<p>Where is the mention of recognition of same-sex marriages performed abroad? Or same-sex adoption rights? Or the increased visibility and acceptance of non-heterosexuality in the major cities (perhaps excluding Jerusalem) during the 51 weeks of the year when Gay Pride doesn&#8217;t take over?</p>
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		<title>By: Sinjim</title>
		<link>http://972mag.com/ambassador-oren-boasts-israels-record-on-gay-rights-but-gets-facts-wrong/44851/comment-page-1/#comment-60298</link>
		<dc:creator>Sinjim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 May 2012 16:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://972mag.com/?p=44851#comment-60298</guid>
		<description>I think the law banning homosexuality is kind of useless as a rhetorical point. Even if the state hadn&#039;t decided to not prosecute people for it, it mostly involves private behavior that takes place in a bedroom, where there usually aren&#039;t any witnesses. So these laws are impractical to begin with.
.
More relevant is whether queer people had rights to equality in opportunity, access to state services, and the like, as well as social attitudes towards the people themselves. On these issues, it&#039;s clear that Israel did not afford these rights in the time frame that Oren is speaking of. 
.
And even up to this day, the rights are limited and only applied to queer folks of one ethnicity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the law banning homosexuality is kind of useless as a rhetorical point. Even if the state hadn&#8217;t decided to not prosecute people for it, it mostly involves private behavior that takes place in a bedroom, where there usually aren&#8217;t any witnesses. So these laws are impractical to begin with.<br />
.<br />
More relevant is whether queer people had rights to equality in opportunity, access to state services, and the like, as well as social attitudes towards the people themselves. On these issues, it&#8217;s clear that Israel did not afford these rights in the time frame that Oren is speaking of.<br />
.<br />
And even up to this day, the rights are limited and only applied to queer folks of one ethnicity.</p>
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