Comments on: All signs point to Israel’s weak democracy http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/ Independent commentary and news from Israel & Palestine Tue, 21 May 2013 07:53:35 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: Dhalgren http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-2/#comment-49706 Dhalgren Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:11:09 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49706 @SH "I don’t think that uneven education is that much of a problem since in my experience, there’s a kind of common level at which the minds of unpretentious thinking people, whether highly educated or not, can meet (I’m saying this as a less-educated person, incidentally)." . The problem I see with uneven education is more about people coming up with solutions or ideas that depend on it. Finding language and ideas that express precisely that "common level" of unpretentiousness you talk about is key and what I was suggesting. We need to come up with solutions that depend on intelligence and not education. We are not talking about the intelligence of theoretical mathematics, after all, or Buber's philosophy, for that matter. We are talking about the intelligence of peace. All human beings possess that. We just often become distracted from it by our passions (and theoretical mathematicians and philosophers are just as prone). . "Ditching the versus and becoming an us is difficult for both sides. I don’t quite follow what you mean by acts that result from being outside the shared narrative. Has our recent shared narrative not been the things you say are outside it?" . I was talking about the mentality involved and not about the acts themselves. I am speaking to the need to see every act of violence as a burden on all. This has been very difficult and perhaps even unnecessary when thinking of a two state solution, which would only require that the two sides not see each other as enemies. If that solution is becoming untenable, though, another way of thinking will become necessary. . "Perhaps those who want the place they live in to house people of goodwill don’t really need any reference to their race or religion to bind them at this point." . It would be part of that common narrative, though. I am not religious myself, but I still see value in what I now think of as myths. Think of how many ideas have used Greek mythology, even though we have long since abandoned the idea that such stories have religious significance. However, if in this case the religious significance would support divisiveness more than togetherness then it would be best to use different terminology. . "In both Arabic and Hebrew, 'and' is not a word but a letter that attaches to the word that follows it. It’s the same letter in both languages, just pronounced and written slightly differently." . Maybe there could be a symbol for this new movement then that uses both the Hebrew and Arabic letters together and would require the speaker to use both Hebrew and Arabic. @SH
“I don’t think that uneven education is that much of a problem since in my experience, there’s a kind of common level at which the minds of unpretentious thinking people, whether highly educated or not, can meet (I’m saying this as a less-educated person, incidentally).”
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The problem I see with uneven education is more about people coming up with solutions or ideas that depend on it. Finding language and ideas that express precisely that “common level” of unpretentiousness you talk about is key and what I was suggesting. We need to come up with solutions that depend on intelligence and not education. We are not talking about the intelligence of theoretical mathematics, after all, or Buber’s philosophy, for that matter. We are talking about the intelligence of peace. All human beings possess that. We just often become distracted from it by our passions (and theoretical mathematicians and philosophers are just as prone).
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“Ditching the versus and becoming an us is difficult for both sides. I don’t quite follow what you mean by acts that result from being outside the shared narrative. Has our recent shared narrative not been the things you say are outside it?”
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I was talking about the mentality involved and not about the acts themselves. I am speaking to the need to see every act of violence as a burden on all. This has been very difficult and perhaps even unnecessary when thinking of a two state solution, which would only require that the two sides not see each other as enemies. If that solution is becoming untenable, though, another way of thinking will become necessary.
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“Perhaps those who want the place they live in to house people of goodwill don’t really need any reference to their race or religion to bind them at this point.”
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It would be part of that common narrative, though. I am not religious myself, but I still see value in what I now think of as myths. Think of how many ideas have used Greek mythology, even though we have long since abandoned the idea that such stories have religious significance. However, if in this case the religious significance would support divisiveness more than togetherness then it would be best to use different terminology.
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“In both Arabic and Hebrew, ‘and’ is not a word but a letter that attaches to the word that follows it. It’s the same letter in both languages, just pronounced and written slightly differently.”
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Maybe there could be a symbol for this new movement then that uses both the Hebrew and Arabic letters together and would require the speaker to use both Hebrew and Arabic.

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49403 sh Sat, 17 Mar 2012 21:14:44 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49403 DHalgren, The top-down mentality was the attitude of the day in the countries they came from although, having been nearer bottom of the pile there, it's hard to comprehend why that came along in their baggage. . " It needs to come from ordinary people" Yeah, I too eventually came to the conclusion that it has to come from ordinary people and that all the terminology that has become hollow and opaque, including all the isms we bat at each other, needs to be ditched. I don't think that uneven education is that much of a problem since in my experience, there's a kind of common level at which the minds of unpretentious thinking people, whether highly educated or not, can meet (I'm saying this as a less-educated person, incidentally). . Ditching the versus and becoming an us is difficult for both sides. I don't quite follow what you mean by acts that result from being outside the shared narrative. Has our recent shared narrative not been the things you say are outside it? . "Maybe some sort of “Isaac AND Ishmael” motif?" Perhaps those who want the place they live in to house people of goodwill don't really need any reference to their race or religion to bind them at this point. We all know we're Abraham's children and that hasn't stopped our leaders from successfully selling us the idea that one half-brother has to triumph over the other for far too long. "Is there a word in Hebrew and Arabic that expresses the idea of union more strongly than the English word “and?”" In both Arabic and Hebrew, "and" is not a word but a letter that attaches to the word that follows it. It's the same letter in both languages, just pronounced and written slightly differently. You can see them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_(letter) DHalgren, The top-down mentality was the attitude of the day in the countries they came from although, having been nearer bottom of the pile there, it’s hard to comprehend why that came along in their baggage.
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” It needs to come from ordinary people”
Yeah, I too eventually came to the conclusion that it has to come from ordinary people and that all the terminology that has become hollow and opaque, including all the isms we bat at each other, needs to be ditched. I don’t think that uneven education is that much of a problem since in my experience, there’s a kind of common level at which the minds of unpretentious thinking people, whether highly educated or not, can meet (I’m saying this as a less-educated person, incidentally).
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Ditching the versus and becoming an us is difficult for both sides. I don’t quite follow what you mean by acts that result from being outside the shared narrative. Has our recent shared narrative not been the things you say are outside it?
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“Maybe some sort of “Isaac AND Ishmael” motif?”
Perhaps those who want the place they live in to house people of goodwill don’t really need any reference to their race or religion to bind them at this point. We all know we’re Abraham’s children and that hasn’t stopped our leaders from successfully selling us the idea that one half-brother has to triumph over the other for far too long.

“Is there a word in Hebrew and Arabic that expresses the idea of union more strongly than the English word “and?””
In both Arabic and Hebrew, “and” is not a word but a letter that attaches to the word that follows it. It’s the same letter in both languages, just pronounced and written slightly differently. You can see them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waw_(letter)

]]> By: Dhalgren http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49202 Dhalgren Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:17:37 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49202 @SH I think that's where the idea of a popular movement like Occupy Wall Street or the Arab Spring (i.e. the nonviolent elements) comes into play. Buber and Ihud still had a top-down mentality. It needs to come from ordinary people. Negotiations and meetings between political leaders and prominent thinkers obviously have failed. There is no reason to expect solutions to come from above. A new kind of Ihud party could be part of it, though, just not the beginning. - Maybe it begins with the development of a shared narrative now, to begin with an answer and not Henrietta Szold's question, a way to think of all that has happened from the Nakba to Israeli children dying in Palestinian suicide bombings not as "us vs. them" but as "us vs. us," as acts that result from being outside this shared narrative, or as being opposed to it. Current grassroots activities that unite Israelis and Palestinians could incorporate this. - The trouble is the educational experience is going to be so variable. The ideas would need to be capable of being expressed in basic terminology so someone with little or no educational experience can absorb them alongside the highly educated (think the "We are the 99%" slogan of Occupy Wall Street). Maybe some sort of "Isaac AND Ishmael" motif? Is there a word in Hebrew and Arabic that expresses the idea of union more strongly than the English word "and?" @SH
I think that’s where the idea of a popular movement like Occupy Wall Street or the Arab Spring (i.e. the nonviolent elements) comes into play. Buber and Ihud still had a top-down mentality. It needs to come from ordinary people. Negotiations and meetings between political leaders and prominent thinkers obviously have failed. There is no reason to expect solutions to come from above. A new kind of Ihud party could be part of it, though, just not the beginning.
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Maybe it begins with the development of a shared narrative now, to begin with an answer and not Henrietta Szold’s question, a way to think of all that has happened from the Nakba to Israeli children dying in Palestinian suicide bombings not as “us vs. them” but as “us vs. us,” as acts that result from being outside this shared narrative, or as being opposed to it. Current grassroots activities that unite Israelis and Palestinians could incorporate this.
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The trouble is the educational experience is going to be so variable. The ideas would need to be capable of being expressed in basic terminology so someone with little or no educational experience can absorb them alongside the highly educated (think the “We are the 99%” slogan of Occupy Wall Street). Maybe some sort of “Isaac AND Ishmael” motif? Is there a word in Hebrew and Arabic that expresses the idea of union more strongly than the English word “and?”

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49076 sh Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:32:40 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49076 To continue with Buber, reading a history of Brit Shalom, a movement founded in 1925 and joined by at least one figure iconic enough in today's Israel to have a street named after her in most Israeli towns, Henrietta Szold is quoted from a collection of essays entitled "Towards Union in Palestine", edited by, among others, Martin Buber: . "If we do not give every member of the public the opportunity of considering the Jewish-Arab question, we will be committing, I think, an unpardonable sin. Why do I think so? For two reasons. First: it was Judaism, which brought me to Zionism and I cannot but believe that Judaism, Religion as I understand it, is our moral code; and Judaism bids us to find a way in common with the Arabs living in this country. Secondly: I am almost certain that at the end of the war it will not be easier that it is now to shape the development of our life in the way we desire by bearing our influence on those who determine the course of affairs. The more I return to this matter, the more do I become convinced that politically as well as morally, the Jewish-Arab question is the decisive question. I insist that we must reach an understanding of this question, and we can succeed in this only if we are offered opportunities of meeting and discussing the matter.... ."
 Henrietta Szold - 1942 http://www.britshalom.org/background.htm . Sounds To continue with Buber, reading a history of Brit Shalom, a movement founded in 1925 and joined by at least one figure iconic enough in today’s Israel to have a street named after her in most Israeli towns, Henrietta Szold is quoted from a collection of essays entitled “Towards Union in Palestine”, edited by, among others, Martin Buber:
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“If we do not give every member of the public the opportunity of considering the Jewish-Arab question, we will be committing, I think, an unpardonable sin. Why do I think so? For two reasons.
First: it was Judaism, which brought me to Zionism and I cannot but believe that Judaism, Religion as I understand it, is our moral code; and Judaism bids us to find a way in common with the Arabs living in this country.
Secondly: I am almost certain that at the end of the war it will not be easier that it is now to shape the development of our life in the way we desire by bearing our influence on those who determine the course of affairs.
The more I return to this matter, the more do I become convinced that politically as well as morally, the Jewish-Arab question is the decisive question. I insist that we must reach an understanding of this question, and we can succeed in this only if we are offered opportunities of meeting and discussing the matter…. .”

Henrietta Szold – 1942
http://www.britshalom.org/background.htm
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Sounds

]]> By: sh http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49072 sh Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:42:42 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49072 @Dhalgren - "How about a larger movement called Buberism? At least, it seems like it’s time to revisit Buber’s bi-nationalist version of Zionism." . My feeling is that disinterring Buber, whom I remember my parents discussing passionately between them and with their friends when I was an infant, is unlikely to energize the masses at this stage. . Believe it or not, these discussions took place within the Bachad/Mizrahi movement, (modern orthodox founders of Bnei Akiva youth movement and, after 67, the Gush Emunim that gave birth to the settler movement in the West Bank and Gaza) where Buber had many supporters, in its struggles over whether - and if so, how - religious Zionists can join forces with their secular counterparts without sacrificing morals and principles. Among those morals and principles was complete equality for Israel's Arab population. It does, though, go to show how rapidly a beautiful garden can run to seed. . As for the rest of your post, there is not one issue on which we disagree. The question is how to provoke a re-evaluation in a way that energizes rather than anaesthetizes both Israel and diaspora Jewry worldwide; and how to engage in action instead of restricting ourselves, as we do now, to reaction. @Dhalgren – “How about a larger movement called Buberism? At least, it seems like it’s time to revisit Buber’s bi-nationalist version of Zionism.”
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My feeling is that disinterring Buber, whom I remember my parents discussing passionately between them and with their friends when I was an infant, is unlikely to energize the masses at this stage.
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Believe it or not, these discussions took place within the Bachad/Mizrahi movement, (modern orthodox founders of Bnei Akiva youth movement and, after 67, the Gush Emunim that gave birth to the settler movement in the West Bank and Gaza) where Buber had many supporters, in its struggles over whether – and if so, how – religious Zionists can join forces with their secular counterparts without sacrificing morals and principles. Among those morals and principles was complete equality for Israel’s Arab population. It does, though, go to show how rapidly a beautiful garden can run to seed.
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As for the rest of your post, there is not one issue on which we disagree. The question is how to provoke a re-evaluation in a way that energizes rather than anaesthetizes both Israel and diaspora Jewry worldwide; and how to engage in action instead of restricting ourselves, as we do now, to reaction.

]]> By: Michael H http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49060 Michael H Fri, 16 Mar 2012 05:04:54 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49060 @AIG "I would like to see what happens in a European country if they have to go through something similar to the second intifada. You would have had a fascist ruler in about 2 minutes." Is European history not your strong point because most of them did -- the British had the IRA, the Spanish had ETA, many European countries had communist terrorists like the Baader-Meinhof Group, Red Brigades, Action Directe etc. Britain and Spain both experienced terror attacks in the previous decade with a higher single incident death toll than anything Israel has faced. There was no fascist dictator as a result. @AIG “I would like to see what happens in a European country if they have to go through something similar to the second intifada. You would have had a fascist ruler in about 2 minutes.” Is European history not your strong point because most of them did — the British had the IRA, the Spanish had ETA, many European countries had communist terrorists like the Baader-Meinhof Group, Red Brigades, Action Directe etc. Britain and Spain both experienced terror attacks in the previous decade with a higher single incident death toll than anything Israel has faced. There was no fascist dictator as a result.

]]> By: Steve http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49057 Steve Fri, 16 Mar 2012 04:09:09 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49057 MYA GUARNIERI in the comment section wrote: "israel rules the lives of millions of palestinians in the west bank and gaza yet doesn’t give them the right to vote." . Reality Check: Palestinains have the right to vote, outside of Israel. And they voted. ANd they decided that the jihad terrorist organization Hamas best represent their views. MYA GUARNIERI in the comment section wrote: “israel rules the lives of millions of palestinians in the west bank and gaza yet doesn’t give them the right to vote.”
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Reality Check: Palestinains have the right to vote, outside of Israel. And they voted. ANd they decided that the jihad terrorist organization Hamas best represent their views.

]]> By: Steve http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49056 Steve Fri, 16 Mar 2012 04:06:57 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49056 Mya Guarnieri is an anti-Israel agenda writer. Every single article she's written on every single website I've seen is excessively critical of Israel. ... Furthermore, she promotes Jewish Israel ceasing to exist and wants the "one-state solution." . Because of this, I NEVER, EVER trust any information she provides or her analysis of anything unless I see it confirmed elsewhere, in context. Mya Guarnieri is an anti-Israel agenda writer. Every single article she’s written on every single website I’ve seen is excessively critical of Israel.
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Furthermore, she promotes Jewish Israel ceasing to exist and wants the “one-state solution.”
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Because of this, I NEVER, EVER trust any information she provides or her analysis of anything unless I see it confirmed elsewhere, in context.

]]> By: Dhalgren http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49052 Dhalgren Fri, 16 Mar 2012 03:49:49 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49052 @SH "Dhalgren, not so far, but let's do it." - How about a larger movement called Buberism? At least, it seems like it's time to revisit Buber's bi-nationalist version of Zionism. We have Bosnia to look at now for what to do and what not to do (probably more of this) with a multi-national state. There was an article I was reading on this the other day that I can't seem to find now. It seems like Israel could begin with these solutions where Bosnia is no doubt going to have a very hard time achieving them. Anyway, the current situation of Bosnia does reveal the limitations of constitutional solutions to ethnic conflicts. You also need to have economic equality (people tend not to hate each other when they have good jobs). You need to have some kind of formal declaration of reconciliation, including an apology for past abuses of Palestinians (yeah, that's one-sided, but that's how it would have to be in the beginning). You would also need to ensure a strong education system for everyone, especially one that presents a shared history for Palestinians and Israelis. - You would also have to accept that there would still be outbreaks of violence that would steadily diminish over time. A joint Israeli-Palestinian security force would ensure this is taken on as a shared burden so as not to play into us vs. them mentalities. There's always the option of a UN peacekeeping force as part of this too. That would also keep attacks from feeding into ethnic conflict. - As far as right of return and concerns over demographics, two points come to mind: 1) economic prosperity is associated with lower birth rates, so bringing Palestinian economic prosperity into balance with Israeli economic prosperity would act to level the demographic playing field; and 2) peace between Israel and Palestine would make the region much more attractive in terms of aliyah. So it is not like the Palestinian right of return would be unbalanced. @SH
“Dhalgren, not so far, but let’s do it.”
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How about a larger movement called Buberism? At least, it seems like it’s time to revisit Buber’s bi-nationalist version of Zionism. We have Bosnia to look at now for what to do and what not to do (probably more of this) with a multi-national state. There was an article I was reading on this the other day that I can’t seem to find now. It seems like Israel could begin with these solutions where Bosnia is no doubt going to have a very hard time achieving them. Anyway, the current situation of Bosnia does reveal the limitations of constitutional solutions to ethnic conflicts. You also need to have economic equality (people tend not to hate each other when they have good jobs). You need to have some kind of formal declaration of reconciliation, including an apology for past abuses of Palestinians (yeah, that’s one-sided, but that’s how it would have to be in the beginning). You would also need to ensure a strong education system for everyone, especially one that presents a shared history for Palestinians and Israelis.
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You would also have to accept that there would still be outbreaks of violence that would steadily diminish over time. A joint Israeli-Palestinian security force would ensure this is taken on as a shared burden so as not to play into us vs. them mentalities. There’s always the option of a UN peacekeeping force as part of this too. That would also keep attacks from feeding into ethnic conflict.
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As far as right of return and concerns over demographics, two points come to mind: 1) economic prosperity is associated with lower birth rates, so bringing Palestinian economic prosperity into balance with Israeli economic prosperity would act to level the demographic playing field; and 2) peace between Israel and Palestine would make the region much more attractive in terms of aliyah. So it is not like the Palestinian right of return would be unbalanced.

]]> By: Ayoosha http://972mag.com/all-signs-point-to-israels-weak-democracy/38002/comment-page-1/#comment-49048 Ayoosha Fri, 16 Mar 2012 02:16:15 +0000 http://972mag.com/?p=38002#comment-49048 With regards to the PRican comment from AIG, PRicans can vote in the actual elections if they live in the mainland, so yes, they do have a right to vote. If they live in the island, they can only vote in primary elections. You can't use that comparison... With regards to the PRican comment from AIG, PRicans can vote in the actual elections if they live in the mainland, so yes, they do have a right to vote. If they live in the island, they can only vote in primary elections.
You can’t use that comparison…

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