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Akiva Orr on J14: 'The longest journey starts with one small step'

Over the years of writing and wrestling with Israel/Palestine, Akiva Orr has become a supportive figure. Born in 1930’s Berlin, Orr has lived the entirety of Israel’s existence. From Eric Fried to Joe Slovo, Akiva can speak for days about his personal relationships with some of the most interesting revolutionary leaders of the late twentieth century.

It is not Akiva’s circle of friends rather his work on the ground in Israel/Palestine as a founding member of Matzpen which is most fascinating. Orr wrote Max Blumenthal and me an email this morning in reference to our latest piece about Israel’s tent protests. It is reprinted in full along with an interview Blumenthal and I did with Orr last summer regarding Israel’s wars as well as a youtube link to a full length documentary about Orr’s political party in Israel, Matzpen.

By Joseph Dana

Author and activist Akiva Orr on Israel’s wars from Max Blumenthal on Vimeo.

Your article on the “social-protest” is excellent. Full of factual data and ideological insights. I found it excellent and learnt facts I did not know. I fully agree with its content but I still consider this protest unique and politically important in Israeli politics. This is so due to my own political development. Let me explain.

I was politicized by my participation in the great Israeli seamen’s strike in 1951. By the way,  a film about that strike was shown in Rothschild tents recently and I was asked to comment.

Until the seamen’s strike I was just an ordinary Israeli kid imbibing all the Zionist education without questioning it.  I grew up in a non-political home,  as a Tel Aviv ‘Beach Boy.’ I joined the “Hagannah” in 1945 when I entered High School. So did 25 of my other class mates out of which three joined Begin’s ETZEL and one joined the Stern Gang. The remaining six class mates joined nothing.  Keep in mind that this was typical to all Jewish high schools at that time. In the “Hagannah” we did military training in summer holidays and fly-posted Tel Aviv streets with weekly at nights. We also participated in anti-British demos. We never did anything anti-Arab. I participated in “Hagannah” activity as a cog participates in a machine. I became platoon commander at 16 and trained 30 kids in drill and use of fire arms but we never fired a bullet (too expensive). All this sounds very political but I was totally a-political. I knew nothing about Marx, Lenin, or the USSR and could not tell the difference between the various Jewish political parties in Palestine. I detested all politics.  It reeked of emotional blackmail.

I visited neighbouring Jaffa often as a kid and though it was 100% Arab it never occurred to me that the Arabs might oppose Jewish independence in Palestine. To me – and to most of my generation – the Arabs were part of the physical landscape like the mountains and the vegetation. We did not hate – or fear – them. It never occured to us that a lengthy military/political conflict with them is inevitable. It was simple: our enemy were the British who ruled us,  not the “natives”.

Only during the 1951 seamen’s strike did I become politically critical because I read the various press reports about the strike. At that time most Israeli newspapers belonged to political parties.  I read them and saw that most press reports were biased against the seamen, and distorted the real facts of the strike. Only one paper gave a factually accurate reporting – and supported the seamen.

It was the paper of the Communist Party (CP). So I joined that party knowing nothing about Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, or the USSR. It took another 2 years of CP membership before I became an anti-Zionist. In the CP, I met Palestinian comrades who were not “Uncle Tom’s” and when I sold the CP paper in Jerusalem (every Friday for 6 years), I encountered violent hostility and opposition that forced me to learn the facts about Capitalism and the Zionist-Palestinian conflict. The 1950s were the peak of the “Cold War” and anti-communism was rough and rampant. I acquired my political education not by books but by political confrontations. I firmly believe that political confrontations with adversaries is the best political education.

Now back to Rothschild tents. Most young people in the tents face their first political confrontation in those tents. Before July 14 they were just fodder in politics. Now they are becoming politically critical – and aware. Whatever the outcome of this unique protest – their minds and attitudes are changed and will stay so. They will not be political fodder again. Give them time and many will become anti-Zionist. One cannot be weaned in a week from what one embraced uncritically for many years at home, in nursery and school. This confrontation/protest changes their minds – and lives. Nothing similar ever happened in Israel before. Moreover,  thanks to the mobile phones, Facebook, and the Internet, this protest is completely self-managed. No external organization hatched it or runs it. Massive Citizens’ self-organizing activity never existed in Israel before. This makes all political parties tremble. They know that this protest changed the rules of the political game in Israel. Israeli citizens cannot be treated as “election fodder” in the future. Whoever will treat them so will pay dearly at the ballot box.

My political activity aims to make the ballot box obsolete by direct participation of all citizens in all political decisions.

This protest is a “first small step” in that direction, and as Mao used to say: ”The longest journey starts with one small step.” Though I am not – and never was – a Maoist,  I agree with him. That is why I support this protest despite all its drawbacks.

Keeping up the struggle – and enjoying it

Aki

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  • COMMENTS

    1. Bosko

      Yes, I am definitely convinced now. Nasser begged BG to make peace. He offered Israel incredibly generous terms but the bloody minded BG who was in cahoots with the anti Soviet forces just pushed Nasser away. He did this either because he was …
      .
      1. A war monger
      2. He was a tool of the Anti Soviet forces
      3. He was dumb
      4. He was confused
      .
      Either that, or none of the above. Because Nasser’s terms were unacceptable because he insisted on the Palestinian Arabs right of return.

      Reply to Comment
    2. Ben Israel

      Arab leaders making speeches to western reporters about wanting peace means NOTHING. Saddam Hussein, when he was in dire straits in his war with Irain in the late 1980s felt he needed more support from the US so he contacted Jewish US Congressman Steven Solarz and told him he “wanted to make peace with Israel”. When the war with Iran ended, he apparently forgot this and launched SCUD missiles on Israel. It was reported on Israel radio a couple of days ago that Qaddafi said he suddenly wanted to make peace with Israel, seeing his regime collapsing. He thought Obama would call off the attacks if he said this.
      Nasser was a master of bluff. IF he really wanted peace he would have begun telling his people there was going to be peace and he would have laid the groundwork to convince Israelis he was serious, as Sadat did.
      If Nasser really wanted peace, he wouldn’t contact an insignificant British MP. I have heard many of these stories, of Arab leaders in the 1940′s and 1950′s supposedly making contact with people who really had no political influence. None of this is significant.
      What Arab leaders say to Western Reporters is meaningless. What they say to their own people and the actions they take in regards to Israel ON THE GROUND are what counts.

      Reply to Comment
    3. Ben Israel

      Mr Orr-
      Factual errors-Qutb was NOT the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. He wasn’t even a key member, or part of the leadership. The MB was founded by Hassan al-Banna and he was assassinated by the Egyptian goverment in the late 1940′s when Egypt was ruled by King Farouk. Qutb was a significant ideologue and theologian although he was not respected by the traditional ulema (scholarly class).
      The fact that the MB tried to kill Nasser 5 times is still not an excuse for him turning Egypt into a police state which it has remained until today.

      Reply to Comment
    4. Ben Israel

      One more point-Hassan al-Banna’s grandson is Tariq Ramadan, the professor from Switzerland who has made it his life’s work to form what would seem to be an unnatural alliance-the Red-Green coalition….”progressives” plus radical Islam. Many of the comments we see here at 972 reflect this attempt.

      Reply to Comment
    5. To Ben Israel

      You wrote:

      Arab leaders making speeches to western reporters about wanting peace means NOTHING

      This is standard HASBARA stuff.
      They used it also in 1977 to discredit
      president Sa’adat’s offer to come to Israel and adress the KNESSET in person.

      BEGIN decided to accept Sa’adat’s offer.
      THe IDF Chief of Staff at that time – Mota Gur – told BEGIN :”Sa’adat’s offer is a trick designed to kill the Israeli officials (including BEGIN) who will turn up in the airport to recieve him. It will not be Sa’adat who will come out of the plane but Egyptian commandoes who will shoot all the Israeli dignitaries.” This was widely reported in the Israeli press. Many believed this.
      BEGIN decided to take the risk.
      GUR placed snipers on the roofs of the airport buildings with their guns aiming at the Egyptian presidential plane doors.
      When the door opened and Sa’adat appeared many Israelis could not believe their eys.
      When Sa’adat later shook hands with the Israeli cabinet and dignitaries he said to Gur:
      “You see. Its not a trick.”

      and BTW, many in Israel (including my mother) distrusted Sa’adat because in 1942 he tried to defect from the Egyptian Army to Rommel in El-Alamein (near Alexandria) with Britain’s plans of Egypt’s defences. He was arrested and imprisoned. He did it for the same reason that Itzhak Shamir went to Italy to negotiate an anti-British pact with the Nazis.

      I agree that Yussuf Quteb was not the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. The founder was Hassan el-Banna. But that changes nothing in what I wrote about Nasser. He wanted to liberate the Arab world from the political influence of ISLAM. It seems that you don’t like this.

      I also agree tha Sadam Hussein was an opportunistic loudmouth. But that was not the case with Nasser. Ben Gurion knew Nasser’s peace offers were serious, but he was addicted to the principle – HOLDING ON TO THE ANNEXED TERRITORIES WITHOUT HAVING PEACE IS PREFERABLE TO HAVING PEACE WITHOUT THE ANNEXED TERRITORIES

      His disciple MOSHE DAYAN said about Sa’adat’s first peace offer in 1970 (when he offered Golda Meir peace for returning the Sinai peninsula to Egypt): KEEPING SHAREM-EL-SHEIKH WITHOUT HAVING PEACE IS PREFERABLE TO HAVING PEACE WITHOUT SHAREM-EL-SHEIKH.
      Most Israelis supported this wholeheartedly.
      So Sa’adat launched the “YOM KIPPUR WAR” in 1973, got back the Sinai and – after Golda’s defeat in the Israeli elections of 1977 – made peace with BEGIN.

      Reply to Comment
    6. To Ben Israel

      cont’d

      Nowadays Netanyahu and his cabinet stick to BG’s principle:

      KEEPING ARIEL AND THE WEST BANK WITHOUT PEACE WITH THE PALESTINIANS IS PREFERABLE TO HAVING PEACE WITH THE PALESTIANS WITHOU ARIEL AND THE ANNEXED TERRITORIES ON THE WEST BANK.

      Am I wrong in assuming that this is your view?

      AKI

      Reply to Comment
    7. Ben Israel

      Mr Orr-
      I reject the choice you are presenting me. The choice is to keep the territories we still hold without peace or to give up the territories AND STILL NOT HAVE PEACE.

      Reply to Comment
    8. To Ben-Israel

      1)Assuming the Palestinian peace offer is sincere and their peace genuine would you then be willing to trade territory for peace ?

      2) If your answer is negative then what about the civil and political rights of all the Palestinians in the occupied territories ?

      Are you willing to accept a solution similar to the one in South Africa ?

      i.e. Israel as a state of all its inhabitants?

      AKI

      Reply to Comment
    9. Ben Israel

      Mr Orr-
      I believe that if the Palestinians now were to say that they were willing to give up their demands for the “right of return” of the refugees, in return for a 100% complete return to the pre-67 lines, including Israel giving up the Kotel and the holy places in Jerusalem and Hevron and elsewhere, most Israelis would be willing to accept it, albeit reluctantly, and ANY Israeli gov’t, including the current one would have no choice but to accept it. I would mourn such a development, for the reasons I told you, but most Israelis WOULD accept it. I realize that. However, such a thing is not going to happen, so it is academic to talk about it. NO PALESTINIAN LEADER CAN GIVE UP FULL IMPLEMENTATION OF THE RIGHT OF RETURN OF THE REFUGEES.
      See this:
      http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=235789

      Given this the I believe the future is more of the same, with some sort of UNOFFICIAL modus-vivendi working out once the Arabs realize that political Islam is leading them into a blind alley.

      Reply to Comment
    10. To Ben Israel,

      I hope you are right about “most Israelis” but as I see it in Israel – the more 1967 is receding the more (secular) Israelis “cannot live without the Wailing Wall”.

      In July 1967 a British journalist interviewd
      a Jerusalemite mother and quoted her:

      ” The whole of Jerusalem is not worth a hair of my son who was killed for liberating it (in June ’67) but without Jerusalem I cannot live.”

      This reminded me of a 1950s Israeli joke:

      “A camel prepares to swim across the Suez Canal from Sinai to Egypt.
      A scorpion says to the camel: Do me a favour and give me a ride on your back as I must see my family in Egypt.
      The camel replies:
      I know you. In mid-canal you
      will sting me and I shall drown.
      The sorpion replies:
      Think logically. If I sting you and you drown, so do I.Its an illogical act. Why should I act illogically ?
      The camel says:
      OK. you convinced me. Hop on.
      The camel then swims across the Suez Canal with the scorpion on its back.
      In mid-canal the scorpion stings thge camel which starts drowning.
      The dying camel says to the scorpion:
      But you yourself said it is illogical to sting me. You too will die.
      The scorpion replies:
      You believe in logical behaviour in the Middle-East ???
      ================

      The secular Zionists are not motivated by logic but by the Jewish Identity complex.

      The religious (of all denominations, sects, and faiths) are not motivated by logic but by the God complex,
      and most Arabs are not motivated by logic but by the Honour complex.
      Very few are motivated by logic.

      And yet – a solution to the conflict is possible, even iminent.

      Sounds illogical ?

      So what.

      You look for logic in the Middle-East ?

      Aki

      Reply to Comment
    11. Shayna

      God bless you, Ben Israel. I am so tired of hearing Zionist excuses for their behavior regarding Palestine and America.

      I am an American Christian. I found out what was going on Palestine because of the Revolution in Egypt. I researched the situation in Palestine.

      It makes me sad because the country you have going on over there does not appear to be Israel of the Lord. It is a Zionist state of Rothschild.

      It is NOT acceptable how the natives in the land of Palestine have been treated. It is the same way Native Americans were treated in America, and it is shameful in both countries.

      If Jews would have recognized Christ when he came, then you would not have such a situation. You are wrong to consider yourselves better than others. The Lord chose Israel of the BC to show the world the Lord. But instead Israel of the BC engaged into idolarty.

      That is why the Lord sent Israel of the BC into captivity, idolatry. I do not really see that much has changed. Forty- two percent of the people in the Zionist state are secular which is the same as being an American secular person.

      If people who claim Israel would have recognized Christ then you would know: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.” Galations 3:28,29

      How much better life would be for all humanity, if you were with the program and saw that you are one with the rest of the world. No need to create state and be seperate from the world. No need to act like you are better than others.

      NO, you are the same as the rest of the world, no better, no worse. We are supposed to be one in Christ.

      Reply to Comment
    12. Bosko

      There is some logic in the secular Israeli’s Jewish identity complex. It is a logic based on history.
      Secular Jews have in the past experimented with discarding their Jewishness and assimilation. Much to their shock, when things went wrong, antisemites somehow always found ways of reminding them of their Jewishness, no matter how assimilated they became. That was true of Captain Dreyfus and it was true in the Nazi era when some people of Jewish descent who didn’t even know it, ended up in death camps because their grandfather or grandmother was Jewish. So, many secular Jews now are trying a different tack. If they won’t let us forget that we are Jewish, we may as well be proud of it. Personally, I admire that and I think there is plenty of logic to it.

      As far as this compulsion to give up land for even small hints of the possibility of peace, I consider it foolhardy. The best way that I can illustrate that is by bringing up the peace deal with Egypt. I think that Sadat was a brave and honourable leader. He was a man of his word and for him, peace with Israel was real peace. But what became of him? And what became of his successor, Mubarak? He too more or less honoured the peace deal. But what now? I am not so sure about now. I think that within the next 5 years, Israel and Egypt will have another war and not because Israel wants it.
      So, what? One might ask. My answer is that there is no substitute to a more secure border even if there prospects for peace in the short term.
      I don’t mean that Israel should not be willing to trade land for peace. I think it should. And in the case of Egypt, Begin was absolutely right to trade the Sinai for peace. But Sinai is different than the West Bank. In the West Bank, we simply cannot afford to hand over everything, even for real peace. We should be willing to hand over as much as we can, but not everything. Because the Middle East is volatile and peace does not seem to last in here. So we may as well have at least better security even if it isn’t perfect.

      Reply to Comment
    13. Bosko

      OH and I should have also mentioned the experiment of some Jews with Communism. They too were willing to forego their Jewish identity in favour of the more fashionable idea, then, of Communism. And then they had a rude awakening with Stalin’s show trials of the Jewish doctors and his clamp down on Jewishness. Even those who escaped the show trials and most Jews did. But even they found that their sons or daughters could not enrol in the courses of thir choice in universities, or not at all. Or they found that they were not promoted or couldn’t get the jobs that they wanted, due to their Jewish descent.
      So, I say, that there is a lot of logic to having a Jewish identity

      Reply to Comment
    14. Ben Israel

      “Shayna”-
      I don’t know why you mentioned my name, but all I can say is that I see you are one of the those who believe that “everyone should be the same, and I will define what that ‘same’ is”.

      Reply to Comment
    15. To Ben-Israel.

      You are utterly wrong.

      I firmly believe that no two human beings – including identical twins – are, or can ever be – “the same” i.e. identical.

      EVERY TWO HUMAN BEINGS ARE DIFFERENT.

      Yet I believe in – and act to create – a society that treats all human beings equally despite all physical/mental/social/cultural differences between them.

      By “equal treatement” I do not mean that a big woman and a small woman must get the same amount of food. This is a mechanical interpretation of the idea.

      by “equal treatement ” I mean that their NEEDS must be treated equally despite all differences between them and without harming others.

      This is utterly different from what you suggested.

      Aki

      Reply to Comment
    16. Ben Israel

      Mr Orr-
      What I was referring to in “Shahyna’s” comment was that she is saying that we all have to believe in the same religion….hers.

      Reply to Comment
    17. To Ben-Israel

      I understand, but hope you find my statement useful all the same.

      Aki

      Reply to Comment
    18. For the record – ‘The longest journey begins with a single step’ Attributed to Lao-tzu ( c 604- c 531 bc ), founder of Taoism..quite a time before Mao! (who then it seems claimed the line..)Either way the philosophy applies. Thanks for a very interesting post.

      Reply to Comment
    19. Shayna

      Hey Ben Israel, I picked your name because I read your comment. It makes me sad that people in the Zionist state claim to be Israel. Your behavior does not seem to be of the Lord.

      Israel of the BC was of the Lord. I don’t see that this new creation is of the Lord. It makes me so sad. I love Israel of the Lord, but I don’t see that exists in the land anymore.

      I see a star of Rephan flag. King David had no star, he had the Lord. “Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings in the desert, O house of Israel? You have lifted up the shrine of your king, the pedestal of your idols, the star of your god-which you made for yourselves.” Amos 5:25,26

      My point is, I think the Zionist state is idolatrous. I read that 42% of the people in the Zionist state are secular, not worsipping the Lord.

      You got some freaky deaky Rabbis telling people they are better than others. You got settelers waiting for some freaky deaky Rabbi to return as Messiah.

      I see how the natives are treated. You got a mess going on over there. I don’t see the Lord in the things going on over there. Where is the Lord in your country?

      It offends my Christian values and morals how the natives have been treated. I can only believe you are an idolatrous nation, just like the majority of time in the BC.

      God is love, God is light. God is NOT persecution and oppression. That is of satan.

      I don’t know what you meant by the same. Here is an example. I said we are supposed to be one. When you are married you are one with your wife. That does not mean you have to be the same. It just means that we are supposd to love eachother as ourselves. That is one.

      Reply to Comment
    20. Shayna

      Ben Israel, if you had recognized Messiah you would not be trying to be seperate from the world. How much better life would be for you if you had recognized Messiah. You could live in peace with the rest of the world and love your neighbor as yourself, instead of trying to destroy your neighbor.

      It is not about religion. It is about reverencing the Lord. Recognize Messiah and you will find peace with your neighbors, because we are commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves.

      You try to live in the BC, that is like trying to go to the prom every year of your life. It is irrational.

      You tear the world apart because of your fear. I really wish people would ask themselves, who are they serving by oppressing people and persecuting people.

      For what? To oppress Muslims, so you can have a third temple. Messiah does NOT use the third temple, someone else does.

      Reply to Comment
    21. Taoist

      @ WEINSTEIN HENRY,

      Voilà!
      I thought you had been “swallowed” by the French summer, my friend.

      @ First point

      A lofty goal I totally share, and the minimum we can do, given the circumstances.

      @ Second point,

      On that one, we will agree to disagree. I think Israel has left the L.O.D. (line of departure), and entered what Sun Tzu calls “deadly ground,” and we haven’t seen yet the worst of Zionism approaching its death throes.

      On Aki Orr: I don’t believe Aki Orr and his family got to Israel with the idea of developing a “colonial project.” They were fleeing Nazi persecution, got to their ancestral land, felt at home, and stayed.

      Similarly, the Mayflower’s pilgrims didn’t come here to “colonize” America, they were fleeing religious persecution. Colonization sort of happened, with Europeans arrival en mass, and the clash of two very different world-outlooks.

      @ Third point,

      No, it sounds like the mice debating who would put the bell to the cat. You make a good point on Zionism vs. anti-Zionism, preventing progressives on either side to join forces. Mind to elaborate on the creation of a common platform?

      I don’t believe the de-legitimization battle is being fought on ground chosen by Israel’s ruling classes, but yes, definitely agree with you it contributes to further entrench their mindset, already in a high state of paranoia. I don’t pay too much attention to ideologies, they come and go, and extreme ideologies tend to bite the dust sooner rather than later. I expect Hamas, for example, to self-destroy at some point. Hopefully, the movements and changes we are seeing now will help Israel to survive its own extremists, and take a leap of faith into history, before Clio turns its back on her.

      Taoist

      Reply to Comment
    22. The longest discussion starts with one simple word.
      Just want to thank Akiva Orr for sharing his insights, and thank you for your patience.
      No two humans are the same, you are right; and no two humans are too different to meet in peace, I would add.

      Reply to Comment
    23. Taoist

      @ WEINSTEIN HENRY,

      5. Far right is fascism in the making; fascism is not the suppression of elections, but the suppression of any political opposition.

      —————————

      A great definition, and thanks for explaining B. the meaning of “proto-fascist,” useless as that can be. Hitler was “elected,” sort of, in what was proto-fascist Germany, way before they grew into what we know as Nazism.

      Bush II, though elected, used all our democratic tools to unfold a proto-fascist regime, curtailing civil and legal rights, and violating all accepted norms of international law. Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, extraordinary rendition, etc., are clear examples of the extreme measures a proto-fascist regime can take within a democracy.

      A proto-fascist regime can well exist within the parameters of a democracy, in fact, it needs some sort of “democratic” umbrella to be born and develop, like Hitler did, in order to consolidate, concentrate, and centralize power for the ruling classes.

      Whoever said that “democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner?”

      :-)

      Taoist

      Reply to Comment
    24. To Weinstein/Taoist

      My parents left Germany in 1934 en-route to USA. They had all the papers necessary for immigration to the USA.

      They were not Zionists, nor did they become Zionists. My mother had a Zionist brother who emigrated to Palestine in 1924 after marrying a Jerusalemite girl who came to Berlin to find a husband.

      My mother wanted to see her brother before emigrating to the USA. She thought it is her last chance to see him for a very long time – maybe forever.

      She arrived in Jaffa and fell in love with the T-A beach. With the snow-white sand and clear torquise sea. Utterly unpolluted.
      She met her brother and my father met many former friends. So they prolonged their visit
      but in 1939, when WW2 began they decided to stay till the war is over as German submarines endagered shipping. So they stayed. Reluctantly

      In 1948 my father said to me:

      “In 1934 I had no idea that Palestine is populated by another nation that also seeks independence.
      There will be an etnic conflict here that will last many decades.
      It will suck up all the creativity, talent, thinking – and lives – of most people living here. Both Jews and Arabs.
      It will be a waste of one’s life.
      I am not a nationalist and never was a Zionist.
      I made a mistake in prolonging our visit.
      Nowadays I am too old to emigrate and start life from scratch in another country.

      In 1948 he was 44 and I was 17.
      I did not understand – or agree – with him.

      Nowadays I see his point.

      Aki

      Reply to Comment
    25. Bosko

      I have a solution. Let’s convince the entire Jewish population of Israel to jump into the sea and drown ourselves. That will solve everybody’s problems. There will be no more Zionists. The Jewish population of the world will halve and in good time, those who would be allowed to assimilate, will do so, the rest would be taken care of (know what I mean?) by the peace loving people of the world. The Arabs and the rest of the world would then live on in peace and harmony forever. Because everybody knows that it is only little Israel that stands in the way of the poor Arab people and eternal happiness.
      Voilla, the final solution completed. Keep on working for it Anti Zionists …

      Reply to Comment
    26. Shayna

      God bless you, Bosko, it is not your race or supposed religion (I don’t know what the Zionist religion is.) It is your behavior. Stop acting like you are a victim. I have never seen people play victim as much as Zionists.

      Who funded Hitler’s military? You are not victims, you are victimizers.

      Reply to Comment
    27. Bosko

      God bless you Shayna. You seem to know more about us than we do about ourselves. I beg your forgiveness for victimising you.

      Reply to Comment
    28. Shayna

      Hey Bosko, I know you were being sarcastic, but Zionists should be ashamed of what you are doing to America via Rothschild’s primarily privately owned Federal Reserve.

      No, Bosko, you can’t victimize me. I am protected forever in Christ Jesus. I like blessings. I am very blessed.

      I have studied the Torah. I have actually read it, many parts many parts, many times. That is why I am not buying your lies and attempts to act like victims.

      Why did Jews in the BC get kicked off the land and later returned after captivity in Babylon? Idolatry. I can only observe that things have not changed.

      I do know a lot about Israel of the Lord and I have been researching about Rothschild’s Zionist state.

      You really should research the Rothschild family, before you talk a bunch of smack. Who financed Hitler’s military?

      You know, many Jews were opposed to a Zionist state. Rothschild’s Zionist state was founded on the blood of many Jews. That makes me cry.

      Reply to Comment
    29. Bosko

      God bless you Shayna. Please read this …
      ““If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight reign on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless” (James 1:26).

      The seeds of backbiting, gossiping and slandering are planted in the hearts of men and women by the devil to cause confusion and destruction. It does not matter whether his victims are Christians, Muslims or members of any other religious body. No religion would ordinarily encourage its members to indulge in malicious gossip. The Holy Bible and the Qur’an for instance, condemn it entirely. Both books are in agreement that gossip is evil and should not be indulged in”
      This is my last post in 972. There is just too much hatred in here.

      Reply to Comment
    30. To Shayna

      You wrote:
      “Many Jews were opposed to a Zionist state. Rothschild’s Zionist state was founded on the blood of many Jews.”

      The first part is correct. Most Orthodox Jews opposed Herzel’s Zionism, and many still do so today. You can find them in New-York and also in Jerusalem.

      They believe a JEWISH State must be created by God and not by sinning – atheist – Jews.
      As Israel is secular (and Israeli law is not Jewish religious law “HALAKHA”, but secular law) what makes the “Jewish” State “Jewish”?

      Baron Edmund de-Rothschild, who between 1883 and 1900 donated 8 million pounds sterling to set up the first Jewish settlements in Palestine was an anti-Zionist.

      When Herzl asked him for money he refused to give him any. He told Herzl he was against a Jewish State as this will create a conflict of loyalties between his loyalty to France and his loyalty to the Jewish State.

      His donations – and settlements – all of which preceded Zionist immigration, were intended to increase French influence in the M-E and his model was ALGERIA.

      His settlers in Zichron Ya’akov (named after his father Jacob) and Rishon-Le-Zion were the first to start wine production in Palestine. Their wineries still exist.

      He financed the vineyards and encouraged his settlers to employ Palestinians as hired labour.

      The Palestinians liked it because it enabled them to earn cash while their own peasant economy was a subsistence economy.

      Relations between the Palestinians and the Rothschild settlers were amiable and friendly because the latter – being non-Zionist – did not intend to create a Jewish State in Palestine and were not seen by the Palestinians as a threat. Work in Rothschild settlements brought economic wealth to Palestine. Land prices rose, so did wages.

      When the Zionist LEFT began to arrive in Palestine (after the failure of the 1905 revolution in Russia) the new immigrants started the “Conquest of Labour” campaign.

      This meant threatening the Rothschild settlers who employed Arabs, demanding they employ only Jews, and beating up the Arab workers.

      This campaign – lasting till 1930 – forced all Jewish employers to “Employ Jews only”.

      The Zionist-Palestinian conflict started by the “Employ Jews only” campaign of the Zionist LEFT. Not by the Rothschild settlers.

      This campaign outraged the Palestinians who lost jobs and income and felt threatened politically by the Zionist aim to create a Jewis State in the country where they formed – continously for over 1000 years – a 90% majority, inhabiting – continously – over 800 villages and a dozen towns.

      The Zionist LEFT, not Rothschild and his settlers, are the originators of the conflict in Palestine.

      Aki

      Reply to Comment
    31. Taoist

      @ AKI ORR,

      I appreciate your comments, not just the last one; I mean each and every one of them. I am copying them into an AKIVA ORR file, for my own education.

      Your father was a wise man.

      Like him, many people saw the seeds of a protracted conflict, as you might well know. Among them was Gen. Marshall (Plan Marshall), S. of State to Truman, and closely behind him the prestigious “Wise Men,” a collection of prestigious statesmen. Truman was a Christian fundamentalist, a Baptist product of America’s “Bible-belt,” a believer in a new “Exodus” and a return to the “promised land.”

      With Truman we can also mark the beginning of the US Jewish lobby, personified by Cham Weizmann, who represented the efforts for the creation of a Jewish state. Truman was facing a difficult re-election campaign, and his counselor, Clark Clifford, wanted to secure the Jewish vote. Weizmann offered to deliver it, in exchange for US support at the UN. As Truman put it, “I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents.” Truman got 75% of the Jewish vote, compared to Roosevelt’s 90%.

      Gen. Marshall, a strategist and a man of integrity, saw the danger of playing with foreign policy based on electoral needs, and forecasted a long term conflict. During a faithful meeting at the WH, Robert Lovett, Marshall’s deputy, told Truman his decision was “injurious to the Presidency,” and Truman paused, but Marshall knew Truman had already made up his mind. He could resign, and abandon Europe’s Plan Marshall, or let Truman get away with it. He chose the second route, but in an exceptional move for a S. of State, he told his secretary to make a record of the meeting for history’s sake.

      In his bio, Clifford, who was the mastermind behind curtains, and Truman’s connection to the Jewish lobby, said Marshall never talked to him or mentioned his name ever again. Ironically, Clifford ended his life in disgrace for a corruption case as chairman of a Saudi Arab-owned bank, BCCI. He was as corrupt in his private life, as he had been in his political life.

      http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0591/9105017.htm

      Reply to Comment
    32. Mitchell Cohen

      Bosko, I wouldn’t pay “Shayna” any heed. Judging by her pen name, she is either a Jewish apostate who converted to Christianity or has never been Jewish and is taking on a Jewish sounding name, claiming to study Torah, etc. etc. to make herself sound more credible in the knowledge of Judaism/Zionism. Judging by the context of her post (all our problems are due to not accepting Jesus, her conspiracy theories, blah blah), she seems to be an old fashioned Christian anti-semite (which thank goodness, there are less and less of today)….

      Reply to Comment
    33. To Bosko

      You wrote (ironically):

      “Let’s convince the entire Jewish population of Israel to jump into the sea and drown ourselves. That will solve everybody’s problems.”

      I have a more practical solution, one that is working quite well in South-Africa, and resolved a similar conflict there:
      Let the territory between the river Jordan and the Meditteranean sea be the state of ALL its inhabitans, Jews and Arabs, Chritians and Muslims. With laws banning preferential treartement to any ethnic or religious group.

      Do you accept this ?

      Aki

      Reply to Comment
    34. Mitchell Cohen

      Akiva,

      I cannot speak for Bosko, but I do have a question based on what you are asking him. While I, myself, am against the one state solution, bi-national state solution, or whatever name you want to give to what you are proposing. However, for those who are in favor (including you), my ? is what will the language of this state be? I am assuming that even those Israelis who would have no problem with Israel ceasing to be a Jewish state (wouldn’t even have a problem giving up the Hatikva or the Star of David flag), they would have a problem giving up speaking Hebrew. So, I ask, what would the national language of this “state for all her citizens” be? Language wouldn’t be the only issue, but I am choosing language as it is something that, like it or not, is part of our identity and something we need and use on a day to day basis. When my kids go to school, the classes are taught in Hebrew. If I go to the bank, or the post office, or to the doctor, I know I need to speak Hebrew. What will be in a “bi-national” state? Just wondering….

      Reply to Comment
    35. Ben Israel

      Mr Orr-
      You have left me confused. It seemed you supported the partition plan, but now you want a single state.
      Is South Africa a good model? That country has a lot of problems, including large-scale emigration of educated people of all races. It is FALSE to say there is no racial discrimination there, there is an official policy of giving preference to blacks..you know…”affirmative action”.

      The fact that you and your father were or are not Zionists doesn’t mean other people aren’t. You don’t speak for the rest of us.
      Regarding ethnic preferences: well, first you show me that the Arab states that will be having new regimes in power will be giving up Islam’s preferred place in the state structure and they stop calling themselves “Arab state”, i.e they disband the Arab League and Egypt stops calling itself the “Arab Republic of Egypt” and the Palestinians remove the first clause in their constitution which says “the Palestinians are in integral part of the Arab world and will work for Arab unity”. Then come back to me and show me their examples.

      Reply to Comment
    36. Palestinian

      @ Shylock , if you cant/dont want to be part of the Middle East as it is then leave, nobody is forcing you to stay.But you cant change the identity and mentality of millions of people to accommodate the situation of 6 million foreigners who imposed themselves on the region.I think another South Africa is much better than the current situation.

      Reply to Comment
    37. Mitchell Cohen

      “But you cant change the identity and mentality of millions of people to accommodate the situation of 6 million foreigners who imposed themselves on the region.” [End of Palestinian]
      What’s a matter Palestinian, backtracking a bit are we? I thought you said that the Jews are not a people and that the Jews in the Middle East were really “Arabs of the Jewish faith”. Now you are saying there are 6 million “foreigners” who “imposed” themselves on the region. Presumably, you are talking about the 6 million Jews in Israel. However, didn’t you know? No small percentage of these (probably around 50%, if not more) are descended from Jews who have been in the Middle East for centuries (even longer than many Arabs themselves have). So, how can they be “foreigners” to the region? Looks like you can’t even make up your own mind about what you believe….

      Reply to Comment
    38. Ben Israel

      Mitchell-
      Why are you looking for consistency from these political propagandists? Don’t forget that now they are saying that “Jews are Arabs, but Palestinians aren’t”.

      Reply to Comment
    39. Palestinian

      Mitchell, I think you have a problem in comprehending words , I said 6 million foreigners not “people” deliberately. Unfortunately , the majority of Jewish Arabs chose their “Zionist Jewish” identity over their original Jewish Arab identity. According to your myth , all Jews descend from Jews who lived once in Palestine , then Jewish Moroccans cant be the natives of Morocco ,which means they havent been there before other Moroccans. When I say Arab Jews I mean Jews descending from Arab parents like the Samaritans and Jewish Yemenites (not Jews who fled Europe and Spain and settled in Egypt Morocco and Syria, some them didn’t even speak Arabic well ), not the East in general, so Arab Jews are “part” of the Mizrahi Jews, again (for smart people like you)I am not referring to Jews from Iran , Turkey or India . Egyptians Jews who are originally from Europe are referred to as “Khawaja “, like Khawaja David or Khawaja Shlomo , Khawaja means “a foreigner”. In brief , Arab Jews don’t comprise 50% or even 40% of Israeli Jews.
      I have to remind you again that the ‘first’ Jews weren’t the first “people” (because they were a people ,like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah) to inhabit Palestine or any other land in the region.
      When a Jew who comes from Arab parents (notice the s ) refuses his Arab identity , what should I call him/her ? Shakira is half Lebanese , nobody refers to her as “the Lebanese singer”.Next time I will say foreigners to the land of Palestine and between two quotation marks “except for Palestinian Jews”.

      Reply to Comment
    40. Ben Israel

      Palestinian-
      Look at it this way. In the period after World War I when the Arab nation states were set up, they had the chance to show the Jews that they really viewed them as “brother Arabs” or “brother Iraqis”, or “brother Egyptians”. What happened. Pogroms in Syria and Iraq, Jews refused citizenship in Egypt where they were finally expelled in 1956. The Arabs made it clear THEY VIEWED THE JEWS AS ALIENS. THEY made it clear to the Jews that they weren’t wanted. They are the ones who rejecte Jewish “Arab” identity. They could have said when Israel was created that “here we will show you that you are better off sticking with us than going to a separate Jewish state”. They didn’t do it. So please get off this ridiculous “Jews are Arabs” nonsense. Except for the fringe group Keshet Mizrachi, no Jews from Arab countries look at themselves like that.

      Reply to Comment
    41. Mitchell Cohen

      “I have to remind you again that the ‘first’ Jews weren’t the first “people” (because they were a people ,like the people of Sodom and Gomorrah) to inhabit Palestine or any other land in the region.” [End of Palestinian]

      And neither were today’s Arabs. Unless you can trace your roots directly to the Jebusites or the Philistines, YOU do not descend from the VERY first people to inhabit this area either.

      “When a Jew who comes from Arab parents (notice the s ) refuses his Arab identity , what should I call him/her ?” [End of Palestinian]
      Yet in another post you said that just because Arabs get into fights with each other (regarding the Arabs who slaughtered the “Arab Jews” who helped the “Jewish Zionists), doesn’t mean they are not all Arabs. Now you are saying that if an Arab [Jew] is a Zionist, he is no longer an Arab.

      Now, back to the question I asked a couple of post ago. While I am enjoying our Palestinian friend push himself into a corner more and more, I REALLY want to know what the national language of a “state for all her inhabitants” would be? I know Akiva is very busy (and respect that), but there must be another single state proponent here who can answer me….

      Reply to Comment
    42. Shayna

      God bless you, Mitchell Cohen. I love Jews, as a Christian Jews are my brothers and sisters. However, I don’t believe Zionists are Jews.

      Zionism has only been around about 100 years. Zionism is something Rothschild has promoted. I see people posing as Jews in the Zionist state. Zionists don’t resemble Jews.

      How did the Lord tell Jews to treat “aliens”? Leviticus 19:33,34 “When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the Lord your God.”

      Since Zionists feel that Palestine is their land, then Palestinians would qualify as “aliens”.

      Looks to me like people in the Zionist state should be loving the Palestinians as themselves according to the Word of God in
      Leviticus. But apparently, many Zionists do not practice the Torah.

      No, Zionism is of man, not God. Read your Torah. Don’t just listen to what racist Rabbis say. Read what the Lord has to say about how you are supposed to treat people not of your race or religion. Leviticus 19:33,34 is a guide.

      There are real Jews in the Zionist state who do practice the Torah and love their neighbors. Those Jews, real Jews, have beautiful hearts, kind hearts.

      No, Zionism is of man. The Torah is of God.

      If the truth bothers you, Bosko, then ask yourself why? Does it bother you that Rothschild and other Zionists were cohorts to/ and in Hitler’s regime? Does it bother you that the Zionists, back then, did not help the Jews? It should, if you are a real Jew.

      It is not hate Bosko, it is love. Love for the real Jews who were killed to benefit Rothschild. Love for other innocent people who suffer because of Rothschild’s dream of a third temple for his god (which is not the Lord).

      Bosko and crew, do your research before you run hiding from the truth.

      Aki Orr, I don’t believe that. The research I have seen states plainly that Rothschild was a Zionist. It is interesting that is not even his real name. He had a Jewish looking last name before he changed it. Why did he change his name from a Jewish name, to look British and elite??? LOL

      I don’t know, but one way or the other. The research I have seen says that Rothschild financed Hitler’s military.

      If Rothschild is so benevolent, why didn’t the “money man” help the Jews? Oh that is right, he was able to get the land of Palestine from the British because of the Jew’s suffering.

      Why are the Zionists trying to eliminate the Natives in the land? It looks like the Zionists are building a concentration camp over there. Even a Jew who lived through Hilter’s regime stated that very thing.

      You Zionists got some wickedness going on over there. God bless the Zionists. By the Grace of God, the Zionists will fail at what you are trying do to the Palestinians and what the Zionist Banksters are trying to do to Americans.

      Reply to Comment
    43. To Mitchell Cohen

      In the 1940s, when I went to Junior school in Tel-Aviv in British Palestine, all stamps, money, road names and notices, were in THREE languages – English, Hebrew, Arabic.
      All T-A schools taught all three languages.
      In T-A we were taught all lessons in Hebrew but we learnt also Arabic and English.
      No one saw any problem with this multiplicity.

      In Israel TODAY all highway and speedway notice boards are in THREE LANGUAGES.
      So are many street names.
      No Israeli complains.

      As for the Zionist anthem “HATIKVAH” (N.B. I use the term “Zionist” as a factual descriptor, not as a derogatory term) which still serves as the Israeli anthem, many Israelis feel it should be changed as it expresses hopes for realization of a vision which has already been realized.
      A lot of Israelis find HATIKVAH dated and many send “Letters to the editor” suggesting it be replaced by a new, updated, ISRAELI – rather than ZIONIST – anthem.

      Many Israelis TODAY go to Arab private doctors (especially dentists)IN ARAB TOWNS IN ISRAEL. Most are excellent DOCTORS (many studied in Germany, Italy, etc) and charge half of T-A prices. Many Israeli car owners repair their cars in Arab garages. They do a reliable job and charge half of T-A prices.

      Israel abolished all its trade-schools.
      No Israeli state school teaches carpentry, engine-repair, welding, lathe-operating, construction, metal-work, plumbing, electrical wiring. etc.

      Most craftsmen doing these jobs in Israel TODAY are Palestinians. A few are Jews who learnt their trade decades ago.

      ALL BRICK-HOUSE BUILDERS IN THE SETTLEMENTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES ARE PALESTINIANS. Come and see for youself.

      This sounds incredible in New-York but poses no problem in Israel.

      To Ben Israel.
      Of course I speak only for myself.
      So do you.
      But there are many Israelis who share my views.
      MOST ISRAELIS – especially the young – ARE NOT ZIONISTS.
      Ben-Gurion used to say: “The Zionists don’t immigrate (to Israel) whereas the immigrants are not Zionists.” and also
      “A Zionist is a Jew paying another Jew to immigrate to israel.”

      You must take into account an inevitable historical process:
      “ISRAELINESS” is emerging as a new identity.

      Just as the S-A original Dutch immigrants evolved from dutch into “AFRICANERS” so do secular Israeli Jews evolve into ISRAELIS.

      Professor Yeshayahu Lribovitz, the orthodox Jew with SEVEN PH.Ds from Berlin University (in Chemistry, Biology, Bio-chemistry, Physics, Bio-physics, medicine, Philosophy)
      who was my philosophy teacher, used to say:
      “Israelis are not Jews but “Hebrew-speaking gentiles”. Dig it.

      I myaelf have an “Israeli” cultural identity, not a Jewish one.
      I greatly respect the Jewish cultural ID (including the religious one) but as I am not religious I have a different cultural ID.

      Most problems in S-A today are the product of a century of white racism. The millions of Blacks there suffered enormous neglect in
      Education, Housing, Health. It takes time to overcome the results of this neglect. But I have no shred of doubt that within a few decades S-A society will prosper and people will have difficulties to understand racism.

      I suggest you watch Clint Eastwood excellent movie “INVICTUS”. It clarifies my point.

      As for the 2-State Vs 1-State solution.
      Until Arafat’s speech in the UN (1975?) I was for the 2-State solution, but when Arafat offered the 1-State solution I could find no principled – humanist – argument against it.
      You may ague he was not sincere. OK.

      My question to you is:
      If you did believe in his sincerity, would you then accept the 1-State solution.

      Contemplate it as a mental experiment, not as a debating point. I want to unravel your motivation, not to win an argument.

      My guess is that you would not.
      (No offense meant)

      Am I wrong ?

      Aki

      Reply to Comment
    44. directrob

      Mitchell Cohen,
      “Unless you can trace your roots directly to the Jebusites or the Philistines, YOU do not descend from the VERY first people to inhabit this area either.”
      .
      I surely doubt the Philistines were the first self identifying group in Israel. Even so as an European I think I can safely claim those very old prehistoric Israeli roots, it should be much better than an even bet. Just as well I can safely claim to be descendant of Atheist, Muslims, Jews, Catholics and Christians. Probably there is also a Greek king or a Pharao somewhere. Some even see some Neandertal genes. After 100-200 generations I have no doubt whatsoever that my genes were mixed quite thoroughly.
      .
      Actually if Europe and the rest of the world was populated though the Middle East as many think, all non African people can claim to have been is Israel first. The same is probably true for most Africans, Africa was not Isolated. But do not despair the same is true for you. We are all one people.

      Reply to Comment
    45. JonP

      Ben Israel,

      “Mr Orr-You have left me confused. It seemed you supported the partition plan, but now you want a single state.”
      It is clear from all that Aki has written both here and in his other writings that he never supported the partition plan; however he did say that it would have been preferable for BG to stick within the borders of the partition plan in 1948 than to annex more territory and set Israel on a path of constant conflict for the next 100 years. This does not mean he supported the partition plan, but would rather have seen it respected that pushed aside in a bid for more land.

      “Is South Africa a good model? That country has a lot of problems, including large-scale emigration of educated people of all races. It is FALSE to say there is no racial discrimination there, there is an official policy of giving preference to blacks..you know…”affirmative action”.”
      This comment is frankly beneath contempt and shows you up for the racist bigot you are, hiding behind a mask of intellectualism. Are you saying that because SA still has a myriad of problems, the former system of racial subjugation was preferable? South Africa IS a good model because it is an example of how two supposedly irreconcilable people CAN, after years of conflict in which one group was oppressed by the other, live together in a state for all its people.

      Reply to Comment
    46. Palestinian

      Arab Jews were living peacefully along “other” Arabs till Zionism emerged in the 19th century , the life of Arab Jews started to deteriorate after the 48 war .Generally speaking ,Jews in Egypt were living happily and treated as other Egyptians. Human beings and Arabs in general are emotional and tribal(when I say tribal I mean biased towards the group of people who have more in common) , they fight and attack eachother and others for the silliest reason ,I regret that.It takes one collaborator to turn naive and ignorant people against the Jewish community .One idiot blows up the Jewish Quarter in I dunno where ,we have a civil war ,but bcz they were a minority there wasn’t a civil war.Few non-Jewish Arabs committed crimes against their Jewish neighbors,anti-Jewish feelings became part of our mentality , which is wrong and has to be erased.
      Zionists worked hard to achieve their goals , was it that hard to force/convince the Arab Jews to leave their countries ?Didnt some Arab Jews collaborated with the Zionists ? Didn’t Zionist agents set off bombs to terrorize Iraqi and Egyptian Jews and force them to leave ? If ,as you claim, Jews were treated as aliens , why didn’t they leave long time before the 40s and 50s ? Why didn’t they try to prove their commitment and loyalty to their countries and fellow Arabs ?Why didn’t they ask to go back till this moment ? How many of them declared that he/she is willing to go back and live wherever they come from ?How many of them tried to contact us as Arab Jews not Israelis ?How Shehata Haroun and Zaki Oraibi were diferent ?Why didn’t they flee Egypt ? If few family members treated me badly, do I become a friend of the family’s enemy or even a member ? Half the Lebanese people treated and are treating the Palestinian refugees badly , does that make Lebanon or the Lebanese people my enemy ? Should I play the victim role and blame them for everything ? You refuse to accept any fact that damages the picture of Israel and Jews that is sculptured inside your brain since minute one .You want to believe Jews are a nation ,a distinct group of people , with culture (LOL) and you were oppressed for centuries and finally you resettled in your promised homeland ,to live in “peace “( a big LOL) and prosperity regardless of what you have been doing to others, all justified and you never blame yourself .65% of the blame falls on Zionists , 20% on non-Jewish Arabs and 15% on Arab Jews.I have a confession , I am tired of talking to you , Shylock and Bosko, you made yourselves clear as I did.From now one I wont comment on your comments and I expect the same thing from you ,I promise you not to even read yours .Khalas I am done with you.

      Reply to Comment
    47. Bosko

      @Akiva
      Seeing that you decided to grace me with your response after I said that I’d leave this hate site, let me respond to you too for one last time. Your proposed South African solution reminds me about what I recently read in Forbes about the survival strategies that Galut Jews adopted historically. I think it fits brilliantly wh

      “The Jewish people, if they may be considered as such, had their culture formed under the pressures of diaspora. Subjected to centuries of oppression and forced ghettoization they developed coping strategies that performed adequately. Until suddenly, they didn’t.

      While it is almost impossible for an American to imagine accepting a defense policy of “Don’t resist, perhaps they’ll only kill half of us,” this is precisely the adaptive mechanism that evolved under the selective pressure of episodic pogrom. Those who rejected non-violence either abandoned the faith or died in solo attempts at self defense”
      .
      You might think that while Jewish Israelis are in the majority, Jews and Arabs can interact with a modicum of civility and order. But after you would implement your South Africa solution, after Jewish Israelis would become the minority, Israel would no longer be Israel, it would turn into another Arab Muslim country. And after our 100 history, I guess maybe half the Jews will survive with the Galut solution that you propose. Personally, I even doubt that.

      Reply to Comment
    48. Palestinian

      @ Mitchell, neither of us can trace his roots directly to very first people who inhabited the land .Going back thousands of years earlier is silly but I am obliged to go in parallel with your claims.

      I didn’t say if an Arab Jew is a Zionist, he is no longer an Arab. Do you know why , anybody could be a Zionist , Jew, Muslim , Christian , white , black yellow green, keep your false interpretations and assumptions to yourself ….so again you tried hard to discredit what I say , but as always you failed.

      What the national language of a “state for all her inhabitants” would be ? easy , Arabic and Hebrew

      Reply to Comment
    49. Mitchell Cohen

      Akiva, thanks for taking the time to respond to my ?

      “In the 1940s, when I went to Junior school in Tel-Aviv in British Palestine, all stamps, money, road names and notices, were in THREE languages – English, Hebrew, Arabic.
      All T-A schools taught all three languages.
      In T-A we were taught all lessons in Hebrew but we learnt also Arabic and English.
      No one saw any problem with this multiplicity.”
      [End of Akiva] It is one thing to have signs in multiple languages and to learn other languages in school as a 2nd (or 3rd) language. This is a common occurrence all over the world. However, what would the DOMINANT language in a “state of all her citizens” be? You see, I am not so sure even the most hard-core “I am an Israeli, not a Jew” Israelis are ready for their mother-tongue to give up on Hebrew being the dominant language in their country.

      “In Israel TODAY all highway and speedway notice boards are in THREE LANGUAGES.
      So are many street names.
      No Israeli complains.” [End of Akiva] Again, street signs are one thing; the language a country functions in is another.

      “As for the Zionist anthem “HATIKVAH” (N.B. I use the term “Zionist” as a factual descriptor, not as a derogatory term) which still serves as the Israeli anthem, many Israelis feel it should be changed as it expresses hopes for realization of a vision which has already been realized.
      A lot of Israelis find HATIKVAH dated and many send “Letters to the editor” suggesting it be replaced by a new, updated, ISRAELI – rather than ZIONIST – anthem.” [End of Akiva] Well, the national anthem is another topic (I just wanted to concentrate on language for now), but thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter.

      “Many Israelis TODAY go to Arab private doctors (especially dentists)IN ARAB TOWNS IN ISRAEL. Most are excellent DOCTORS (many studied in Germany, Italy, etc) and charge half of T-A prices. Many Israeli car owners repair their cars in Arab garages. They do a reliable job and charge half of T-A prices.” [End of Akiva] I have NO doubt that there are plenty of good Arab doctors/dentists. However, I would fathom that, with very few exceptions, the language that the Jews who go to the Arab doctors, car repairmen, etc. speak with them in Hebrew, NOT Arabic, as Hebrew is the dominant language here.

      “Israel abolished all its trade-schools.
      No Israeli state school teaches carpentry, engine-repair, welding, lathe-operating, construction, metal-work, plumbing, electrical wiring. etc.” [End of Akiva] And that is a pity. Not because of the conflict, but because those are great trades to know. Not everyone is cut out to be a doctor, lawyer, account, or work in hi-tech. But that is another story (topic).

      Most craftsmen doing these jobs in Israel TODAY are Palestinians. A few are Jews who learnt their trade decades ago.

      “ALL BRICK-HOUSE BUILDERS IN THE SETTLEMENTS IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES ARE PALESTINIANS. Come and see for youself.” [End of Akiva]

      Yes, I am aware of this FIRSTHAND.

      “This sounds incredible in New-York but poses no problem in Israel.” [End of Akiva] Well, I am not in New York. Have been living in Israel for 16.5 years. See, there are Zionist who make aliyah, rather than pay other Jews to make aliyah….:-)

      Akiva, thanks again for taking the time to respond, as I know you are kind of a rock-star on this site….

      Reply to Comment
    50. Mitchell Cohen

      “I didn’t say if an Arab Jew is a Zionist, he is no longer an Arab.” [End of Palestinian]

      Oh really, here is a quote from one of your more recent posts:

      “Unfortunately , the majority of Jewish Arabs chose their “Zionist Jewish” identity over their original Jewish Arab identity.” [End of quote]

      “so again you tried hard to discredit what I say , but as always you failed.” [End of Palestinian]

      Nope, you are the one flipping back and forth like a hamburger on a frying pan.

      “What the national language of a “state for all her inhabitants” would be ? easy , Arabic and Hebrew” [End of Palestinian]

      See my response to Akiva (immediately above). No need to repeat myself here.

      Reply to Comment
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