Appreciate this article? +972 depends on your support -- click here to help us keep going

Analysis News

Akiva Orr on J14: 'The longest journey starts with one small step'

Over the years of writing and wrestling with Israel/Palestine, Akiva Orr has become a supportive figure. Born in 1930’s Berlin, Orr has lived the entirety of Israel’s existence. From Eric Fried to Joe Slovo, Akiva can speak for days about his personal relationships with some of the most interesting revolutionary leaders of the late twentieth century.

It is not Akiva’s circle of friends rather his work on the ground in Israel/Palestine as a founding member of Matzpen which is most fascinating. Orr wrote Max Blumenthal and me an email this morning in reference to our latest piece about Israel’s tent protests. It is reprinted in full along with an interview Blumenthal and I did with Orr last summer regarding Israel’s wars as well as a youtube link to a full length documentary about Orr’s political party in Israel, Matzpen.

By Joseph Dana

Author and activist Akiva Orr on Israel’s wars from Max Blumenthal on Vimeo.

Your article on the “social-protest” is excellent. Full of factual data and ideological insights. I found it excellent and learnt facts I did not know. I fully agree with its content but I still consider this protest unique and politically important in Israeli politics. This is so due to my own political development. Let me explain.

I was politicized by my participation in the great Israeli seamen’s strike in 1951. By the way,  a film about that strike was shown in Rothschild tents recently and I was asked to comment.

Until the seamen’s strike I was just an ordinary Israeli kid imbibing all the Zionist education without questioning it.  I grew up in a non-political home,  as a Tel Aviv ‘Beach Boy.’ I joined the “Hagannah” in 1945 when I entered High School. So did 25 of my other class mates out of which three joined Begin’s ETZEL and one joined the Stern Gang. The remaining six class mates joined nothing.  Keep in mind that this was typical to all Jewish high schools at that time. In the “Hagannah” we did military training in summer holidays and fly-posted Tel Aviv streets with weekly at nights. We also participated in anti-British demos. We never did anything anti-Arab. I participated in “Hagannah” activity as a cog participates in a machine. I became platoon commander at 16 and trained 30 kids in drill and use of fire arms but we never fired a bullet (too expensive). All this sounds very political but I was totally a-political. I knew nothing about Marx, Lenin, or the USSR and could not tell the difference between the various Jewish political parties in Palestine. I detested all politics.  It reeked of emotional blackmail.

I visited neighbouring Jaffa often as a kid and though it was 100% Arab it never occurred to me that the Arabs might oppose Jewish independence in Palestine. To me – and to most of my generation – the Arabs were part of the physical landscape like the mountains and the vegetation. We did not hate – or fear – them. It never occured to us that a lengthy military/political conflict with them is inevitable. It was simple: our enemy were the British who ruled us,  not the “natives”.

Only during the 1951 seamen’s strike did I become politically critical because I read the various press reports about the strike. At that time most Israeli newspapers belonged to political parties.  I read them and saw that most press reports were biased against the seamen, and distorted the real facts of the strike. Only one paper gave a factually accurate reporting – and supported the seamen.

It was the paper of the Communist Party (CP). So I joined that party knowing nothing about Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, or the USSR. It took another 2 years of CP membership before I became an anti-Zionist. In the CP, I met Palestinian comrades who were not “Uncle Tom’s” and when I sold the CP paper in Jerusalem (every Friday for 6 years), I encountered violent hostility and opposition that forced me to learn the facts about Capitalism and the Zionist-Palestinian conflict. The 1950s were the peak of the “Cold War” and anti-communism was rough and rampant. I acquired my political education not by books but by political confrontations. I firmly believe that political confrontations with adversaries is the best political education.

Now back to Rothschild tents. Most young people in the tents face their first political confrontation in those tents. Before July 14 they were just fodder in politics. Now they are becoming politically critical – and aware. Whatever the outcome of this unique protest – their minds and attitudes are changed and will stay so. They will not be political fodder again. Give them time and many will become anti-Zionist. One cannot be weaned in a week from what one embraced uncritically for many years at home, in nursery and school. This confrontation/protest changes their minds – and lives. Nothing similar ever happened in Israel before. Moreover,  thanks to the mobile phones, Facebook, and the Internet, this protest is completely self-managed. No external organization hatched it or runs it. Massive Citizens’ self-organizing activity never existed in Israel before. This makes all political parties tremble. They know that this protest changed the rules of the political game in Israel. Israeli citizens cannot be treated as “election fodder” in the future. Whoever will treat them so will pay dearly at the ballot box.

My political activity aims to make the ballot box obsolete by direct participation of all citizens in all political decisions.

This protest is a “first small step” in that direction, and as Mao used to say: ”The longest journey starts with one small step.” Though I am not – and never was – a Maoist,  I agree with him. That is why I support this protest despite all its drawbacks.

Keeping up the struggle – and enjoying it

Aki

For additional original analysis and breaking news, visit +972 Magazine's Facebook page or follow us on Twitter. Our newsletter features a comprehensive round-up of the week's events. Sign up here.

View article: AAA
Share article
Print article
  • COMMENTS

    1. Mitchell Cohen

      @Palestinian, I don’t know what Arab countries you are talking about, but the comparison with what the Europeans did to the American natives does not fly. The Europeans had NO connection, whatsoever, with American land. However, there were Jews living in Mandatory Palestine even after the Arab conquest in the 7th century. And just because Jewish pioneers drained a swamp miles away from the closest Arab village does not mean they were “forcing out” any natives. Again, the land the Arab villages were on is land that they lost. The crowned land, in between, the swamps that were drained, etc. etc. was NOT.

      Reply to Comment
    2. James

      Ah, I see you’re one of those people who believe all Ashkenazi Jews descended from the Khazar empire who converted to Judaism centuries back. Even if this was true (it’s not) it doesn’t discount the claim that Jews are a people, or that they feel a spritual connection to the land of Israel.

      Reply to Comment
    3. Mitchell Cohen

      “@Mitchell,So you impose your beliefs of me ? Why should I believe you not Pro.Shlomo Sand ?” [End of Palestinian]
      ROTFL, you (a non-Jew) are the one trying to tell us (Jews) who/what a Jew is and I am imposing my beliefs on you….Prof. Shlomo Sand’s book was taken down like a house of cards. The so-called “Khazar Theory” was also disgraced ages ago. Anyone who takes Sand’s book seriously should be even more embarrassed then one who still accepts Joan Peters “From Time Immemorial” as fact.

      Reply to Comment
    4. Bosko

      @Palestinian – Yes. He is still considered to be of Jewish descent.

      Reply to Comment
    5. Bosko

      @Palestinian – Now are you going to answer my question about why the Jews of Arab lands were persecuted out of Arab countries, if they were considered to be Arabs?
      Are you going to answer my question why the native Jews of Hebron were murdered by Arabs in 1929, if they were considered to be Arabs?

      Reply to Comment
    6. Palestinian

      @ Mitchell , The Arab countries that weren’t sovereign entities in the 30s and 40s!(sue your history teacher , or maybe your ministry of education) We were discussing the legal stand of the establishment of Israel in Palestine not the spiritual connections So its comparable to the latter case .Nobody denies the existence of Jews in Palestine for centuries but not foreign Jews.Are you denying the Jewish terrorist groups forced out the natives ?! Lost land ? sounds like the house owner lost his property to the burglar …well he lost it but its called theft.
      @James ,Any group of individuals can call themselves “a people “ who cares ! If you have that kind of a spiritual connection that’s fine , but don’t use it to justify your crimes, Simple .The Pope has a very deep spiritual connection to Jerusalem and Bethlehem but he is sleeping fine in the Vatican!

      @ Mitchell again,I am not telling you how to define yourself ,its none of my business and I don’t care , just keep it to yourself without destroying others lives.If you are on the moon and you scream were are a people I don’t care .Once you are using your definition and identity to murder my people and steal my land then I will step up and wake you up from your Zionist dream.

      Reply to Comment
    7. Palestinian

      @ Bosko , I answered you before.You yourself said that the native (Palestinians) Jews wanted the Zionists , so they were helping them .I can say few of them did .So other Palestinians turned against them.And again when n Arab attack another Arab for religious or tribal reasons , it doesnt mean the latter isnt an Arab.

      Reply to Comment
    8. Mitchell Cohen

      “@ Mitchell , The Arab countries that weren’t sovereign entities in the 30s and 40s!(sue your history teacher , or maybe your ministry of education) We were discussing the legal stand of the establishment of Israel in Palestine not the spiritual connections So its comparable to the latter case .Nobody denies the existence of Jews in Palestine for centuries but not foreign Jews.Are you denying the Jewish terrorist groups forced out the natives ?! Lost land ? sounds like the house owner lost his property to the burglar …well he lost it but its called theft.” [End of Palestinian]
      I wasn’t talking about spiritual connections. I was talking about Jews who were kicked out (and eventually settled in many countries, including Europe) in the Arab conquest of the 7th century and were not allowed back in and CONSTANTLY generation after generation yearned to return, but were forbidden from returning. They are NOT foreigners to this land. Just because they were illegally kicked out hundreds of years ago by force, rather than 64 years ago makes them foreigners, but the descendants of those who lost their land in 1948 are not? So, what I was saying is that the Europeans had NO claim, whatsoever, to American land. The Jews (yes, even Europeans) do. They are NOT “foreign”. Just because someones home was stolen 1300 years ago, rather than 64 doesn’t make it any less wrong. Hence, the Partition Plan.

      “@ Mitchell again,I am not telling you how to define yourself ,its none of my business and I don’t care , just keep it to yourself without destroying others lives.If you are on the moon and you scream were are a people I don’t care .Once you are using your definition and identity to murder my people and steal my land then I will step up and wake you up from your Zionist dream.” [End of Palestinian]

      Then stop trying to tell Jews who/what is a Jew?

      Reply to Comment
    9. Palestinian

      @ Mitchell ,I thought you always mourn the exile under the Roman empire not the Islamic rule .The Jews lived among Muslims and Christians for the last 1400(not 1300,didn’t you memorize your lesson) .I hope you aren’t trying to play the anti Islamic tape now , it wont help you.A Russian Jew is foreigner to the land .His religious belief doesn’t connect him to the Jews who lived there before.And the Jews who lived there weren’t the first people to inhabit the land.
      “Once you are using your definition and identity to murder my people and steal my land then I will step up and wake you up from your Zionist dream.” Obviously you ignored that part , read it carefully.

      Reply to Comment
    10. Mitchell Cohen

      “@ Mitchell ,I thought you always mourn the exile under the Roman empire not the Islamic rule .The Jews lived among Muslims and Christians for the last 1400(not 1300,didn’t you memorize your lesson) .I hope you aren’t trying to play the anti Islamic tape now , it wont help you.A Russian Jew is foreigner to the land .His religious belief doesn’t connect him to the Jews who lived there before.And the Jews who lived there weren’t the first people to inhabit the land.” [End of Palestinian]

      Jews have lived continually in this land before and after the Arab conquest. This isn’t about being anti Islamic, but the Arab conquest was no less a conquest than any other conquest. That Jews (who settled in Russian and elsewhere) were prevented from returning to this land for hundreds of years does not make them any less entitled to those who lost it 64 years ago. No, the Jews who lived here 2,000 years ago were not the first people to live here, but all the more so the Arabs who conquered this land 1300 years ago were not either.

      “Once you are using your definition and identity to murder my people and steal my land then I will step up and wake you up from your Zionist dream.” Obviously you ignored that part , read it carefully. [End of Palestinian]

      Regardless of the conflict over this land, the Jews are a people. The Jews were a people before 1948 and even before Theodore Herzl was born. This has nothing to do with a “Zionist dream”. It is just a fact. Apparently, for you, an annoying one, but too bad….

      Reply to Comment
    11. Palestinian

      Which leads us to the next false belief , do you really believe that all Arabs come from Saudi Arabia ? Under the Islamic rule (or Arab rule as you call it ) Jews weren’t banned from living anywhere in the Middle East , hundreds of thousands of Arab Jews used to live there , including those who were protected from the Nazis.And again a Russian Jew has nothing to do with the land .
      A dream doesn’t annoy me , it’s a dream .Once I wake up I am back to reality. You prefer to call yourself “a people “ to justify what you do that’s your problem , but to me Jews are like Christians and Muslims , from different races and backgrounds.

      Reply to Comment
    12. Mitchell Cohen

      “Which leads us to the next false belief , do you really believe that all Arabs come from Saudi Arabia ? Under the Islamic rule (or Arab rule as you call it ) Jews weren’t banned from living anywhere in the Middle East , hundreds of thousands of Arab Jews used to live there , including those who were protected from the Nazis” [End of Palestinian]

      The lives of Jews living under Islamic rule might not have been as bad as it was under Christian rule, but it was hardly rosey either:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

      “but to me Jews are like Christians and Muslims , from different races and backgrounds.” [End of Palestinian]

      And I really couldn’t care squat about what we [Jews] are to you, anymore than I care about what the flat earth society believes regarding the earth being flat….

      Reply to Comment
    13. Ben Israel

      “Protected from the Nazis”? How do you explain the Farhud massacre of the Jews in Baghdad in 1941, the massacre of Jews in Libya during the war, in addition to other such atrocities?
      Regarding Jews under Muslim rule…they were subject to onerous dhimmi rules including the extortionate jizay tax….

      Reply to Comment
    14. Palestinian

      Mitchell , is seems you dont read all the comments I write .I previously made it clear that wikipedia is Foxnews , so no need to refer to what Zionopedia says.
      Thats great everybody believes in whatever he/she wants to , but it shouldn’t harm others , in your case it does harshly!

      Reply to Comment
    15. Mitchell Cohen

      @Palestinian,

      Actually Wikipedia is probably one of the most neutral sites PRECISELY because ANYBODY can edit it. Otherwise, it is a question of providing a site with a Zionistic slant or a site like electronicintifada. Take your pick.

      Reply to Comment
    16. Palestinian

      @ Shylock , he is back .Are you denying the help Muslims helped the Jews in Spain and during the Nazis era ? thats too much Shylock.

      Its not jizay its jizyah , Muslims pay Zaka and non muslims pay Jizah , dont you pay your taxes ? and are you trying to divert the whole discussion into a Islam bashing thread.Lsn to cut the road , lets assume that Muslims oppressed and persecuted the Jews , are you fine with that ? Now how does that justify the Zionists crimes ? the illegal immigrants ? land theft ? it doesnt , you just want to argue

      Reply to Comment
    17. Palestinian

      exactly , anybody can edit it , so does that make it a trustworthy source of info ?!

      Reply to Comment
    18. Mitchell Cohen

      “exactly , anybody can edit it , so does that make it a trustworthy source of info ?!” [End of Palestinian]

      Well it certainly doesn’t make it “Zionopedia” or a “fox news equivalent”.

      Reply to Comment
    19. Palestinian

      The vast majority of the articles about Palestine and the conflict support the Zionist claims and lies except for facts that cant in any way be manipulated .Even when it comes to massacres against the Palestinians or incidents , in brief without using the tear-effect” as I call it .
      I can say X killed Y
      or X slit the throat of Y and was drenched in blood two sentences , same result , totally different effect on the reader.Wikipedia says that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel , more bias ? If I want to go through articles I can find hundreds of examples .

      Reply to Comment
    20. Mitchell Cohen

      @Palestinian,

      So feel free to go to Wiki, post your version of events, provide resources/links, etc. etc. Nobody’s stopping you, certainly not me….

      Reply to Comment
    21. Taoist

      @ B.I.

      My understanding is that the expression that the longest journey begins with a single step is an old Chinese proverb.

      —————————-

      Yes, it is, but AKIVA ORR is right attributing to Mao, who borrowed extensively from Chinese Taoist folklore, in order to convey his message in simple and popular terms to the Chinese masses. It makes sense that AKIVA, a man of knowledge, first heard it from Mao, at a time when Mao and Maoism became a news item the world over.

      OTOH, accusing him of “sneaking appreciation” for Mao, just for quoting him, is despicable IMHO, but you can stoop to the lowest levels to make a hasbara point, the bottom of which we have yet to see.

      The actual “proverb” is a line from Lao Tzu’s Tao-Te Ching, Ch. 64, line 12, “A journey of a thousand li starts with a single step” (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Laozi), “li” being an old unit of distance which has changed in measure over time, and is nowadays equivalent to about a third of a mile, with the difference lost in translation (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Li_(Chinese_unit), and giving way to confusions when equating a “li” to a mile.

      —————————–

      @ JOSEPH DANA

      “No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.”

      Field Marshall Helmut von Moltke

      Thanks for a bird-view of Israel’s history to place J14, and Israel’s current predicament, into context. It was a necessary article, well thought out. And thank you very much for introducing AKIVA ORR to all of us who have a vested interest on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. It’s been a real pleasure to be with him for 2 hours +, contemplating a living relic of Israel’s history and beyond. For those of us who, like me, never knew of him, this is an added perk brought about by the J14 movement, among other benefits, on which AKIVA (and pardon the familiarity, but I feel awkward calling you “Mr. Orr,” you being a man of the people), has already expounded, and I agree with him up to a point.

      I have supported the Palestinian cause wholeheartedly for decades now, and it has been only in the last decade, thanks to Uri Avnery, Gush Shalom, and other peaceniks/leftists, and more recently thanks in part to +972, and lately to the J14 movement, that I can put a human face to Israel and Israelis. I have always supported Israel’s right to exist for reasons other than Zionism in any version, and AKIVA’s dive into Israel’s history showed me that it would have been possible to get it right, give or take a few injustices. However, “greed and possessiveness,” what Sun Tzu (“The Art of War”) calls the seed of all conflicts, reared its ugly head yet again, and here we are, more than half-a-century later, dealing with a seemingly insurmountable problem. What a waste, of everything.

      Helmut von Moltke’s quote illustrate us that similarly to military confrontations, social struggles cannot be “caged” or directed to plan ,e.g., Egypt, Tunisia, Yemen, Libya, etc., a-la CIA’s “color revolutions,” no matter how much Israel’s internal security or Likud troglodytes will try to bend it to support their colonial project, or to contain it within the separation of “social justice” vs. “security.”

      The J14 movement has the enormous privilege and responsibility of being born at the crossroads of history, and if, as we hope, its growing awareness rises to the challenge at hand, the potential can be a giant historical leap.

      AKIVA ORR, a pleasure “meeting” you. A longtime activist myself, I saw the seeds of something different when J14 started, and have supported it from the beginning, aware of its limitations as I am (can we call it learning curve?:-) J14 has broken the myths of a monolithic Israel marching in lock-step, and that Israel’s ruling classes can fool all Israelis all of the time.

      Kudos to the J14 movement and JOSEPH DANA, for making AKIVA ORR’s rich historical experience available to the public at large.

      Taoist

      Reply to Comment
    22. Taoist

      So feel free to go to Wiki, post your version of events, provide resources/links, etc. etc. Nobody’s stopping you, certainly not me….

      ——————————

      Nobody, except…Israel’s cyber-zombies, who are constantly monitoring all and any articles on, about, or related to Israel, Zionism, Arab wars, etc.

      I have tried editing articles myself (Lebanon’s Summer War, 2006), to find out I couldn’t keep up with the hasbara paid men constantly reversing changes to suit their agenda, disguised under a thin veneer of “neutrality,” that ultimately serves Israel’s interests.

      Wikipedia is not a neutral source on anything related Israel. Plus, using Wikipedia as a reference on Israel, Arabs, Zionism, et al, is a poor choice of sources.

      Maybe about geometric axioms?

      Taoist

      Reply to Comment
    23. Taoist

      @ DEÏR YASSIN

      Thanks for the links.

      Good catch.

      Taoist

      Reply to Comment
    24. Taoist

      @ WEINSTEIN HENRY,

      I was about to link you up to AKIVA ORR’s video, to piggyback on his views on the history of Israel’s foundational period, which IMHO support my POV in the unfinished debate we had on another article, but you already saw it.

      Hopefully,with AKIVA being such authoritative source on that period, it will help you to at least question your POV and do more research on the subject, to balance your views on Zionism, Israel’s early period, et al.

      Taoist

      Reply to Comment
    25. directrob

      All wikipedia articles ( and certainly about Israel and Jewish history ) are suspect, still wikipedia is still a treasure trove of information. Never trust the text but look at the links and the discussion.

      Reply to Comment
    26. Bosko

      @ Palestinian – “I answered you before.You yourself said that the native (Palestinians) Jews wanted the Zionists , so they were helping them .I can say few of them did .So other Palestinians turned against them.And again when n Arab attack another Arab for religious or tribal reasons , it doesnt mean the latter isnt an Arab”
      And in this case the tribal reasons are obvious. The Jews helped Zionists because they were fellow Jews. The Arabs turned on them because they were not considered to be part of the Arab tribe. End of story.

      Reply to Comment
    27. To Ben Israel

      You wrote to me:

      “You didn’t answer my question. Had Israel pulled back to the partition lines, who would they have handed the territory over to if the Transjordanians had not been involved? You didn’t mention that the Palestinians rejected the partition and would not accept peaceful relations with Israel. There was no Palestinian political entity to make peace with.”
      
      My reply: Please read again CAREFULLY my comment of 27/8 at 10.38 pm. 1) I said there that as BG expected the Arabs (this includes the Palestinians) rejected the UN partition
      resolution.

      2)In 1949 – after defeating the Egyptian army (and retreat of the Syrian and Iraqi troops) Israel faced no military threat.
      It could retreat to the UN partition borders
      and stay safely within them.
      The Palestinians were no threat for the IDF, and if Trans-Jordan moved into Palestine it would violate the UN authority.

      At that time Britain still ruled T-J and was anxious NOT to challenge the UN authority.
      Indeed, one of Abdallah’s conditions in his pact with BG was that Israel will NOT complain to the UN for T-J’s annexations in Palestine.

      Who rules the part of Palestine allocated by the UN to the Palestinians, and how he rules
      is up to the inhabitants of that territory.
      Not up to Israel. Its right to interfere there is no different from its right to interfere in Egypt and Syria today.

      As long as these states don’t attack Israel it has no justification to fight them.
      Israel’s annexation of half the territory allocated by the UN to the Palestinians in 1948 was not a defensive act since the Palestinians had no army and declined to fight the IDF. It was an annexationist act.

      BG wanted to increase Israel’s area as far as possible – without increasing its Arab population. He achieved this by “ethnic cleansing” of the Negev, of Ramleh, Lod, Tiberias, and parts of the Galilee. He could stay within UN Partition lines and let Trans-Jordan deal with the Palestinians – without colluding with it.

      In 1949 T-J (i.e. Britain) accepted the new post-1948 Status-Quo. Had BG desisted from signing the secret pact with Abdallah, it is probable that Britain would have reasserted its rule over the Arab part of Palestine. Some Israeli politicians preferred a Palestinian “buffer state” between Israel and T-J.
      BG rejected these options. He preferred to violate the UN Partition to increase Israel’s territory. He believed that a peace treaty with Abdallah will turn the Palestinians into a politically defunct entity.

      He was not only morally wrong but also politically wrong. Israel – nowadays opposing imminent UN recognition of Palestinian independence – is still chocking on the broth BG cooked in 1948 by his secret pact with Abdallah.

      Aki ORR
      ===================================

      Reply to Comment
    28. Bosko

      @Palestinian – ““Once you are using your definition and identity to murder my people and steal my land then I will step up and wake you up from your Zionist dream.”
      You have got this back the front, Palestinian. The Zionists had a dream. They returned to their ancestral home land where fellow Jews lived. They bought land and were building up their land. They were willing to live side by side with their Arab neighbours each having their own state. But the Arab neighbours were not satisfied with part of the land, they falsely claimed that it was ALL theirs. So they stepped up and attempted to wake up the Zionists from realising their dream of building a land for the Jewish people. And shock horror, what happened? The Zionists defended themselves and woke up the Arabs from their dreams of trying to usurp lands that belonged to Jews.

      Reply to Comment
    29. Bosko

      Ben Gurion violated the UN partition, it was because the Palestinian Arabs were the ones to violate it first.
      One can argue that it would have been wiser of BG not to do it and be magnanimous. Which may or may not be true. But one cannot argue that what he did was morally wrong. It isn’t as if the Palestinian Arabs were overly magnanimous towards their Jewish neighbours in 1947/1948.

      Reply to Comment
    30. Palestinian

      I said religious or tribal reason, there is nothing called “the Arab tribe”.Dont make up new concepts to support your imagination. When my neighbor collaborate with the burglar to steal my land he is no longer a good neighbor .
      The Zionists invaded others ‘ancestral home land, they stole the land. The land belongs to the natives (you refer to them as Arabs).The natives refused to give away half of their land to immigrants and terrorists who read mythology books.
      You dream of a Jewish state go and have it somewhere else.Enough with your Hasbara and myths.

      Reply to Comment
    31. Bosko

      @Palestinian – You are the one who is making up new concepts by pretending that there is no Jewish nation.
      When it suits you guys, you kick out Jews from Arab countries because they are Jews and not Arabs. But when it suits you to call native Palestinian Jews Arabs, then you pretend that it’s so. You are all over the place …
      Also, how did the Zionists steal Arab lands? By buying lands? Was the Negev Arab land? No, it was crown land and it represents over 50% of Israel even today. About the only land that you could conceivably pretend that was taken from Arabs were the lands that the Zionists conquered in their defensive war after they were attacked by Arabs in 1947/1948. But they paid with their blood for those lands. About 1% of Palestine’s Jewish population died in the war of 1947/1948. It was a war that was forced on the Zionists by the Arabs so they had the right to keep those lands to ensure that in future attacks, which actually happened subsequently, the borders would be more defensible.
      There is only one solution to all this, Palestinian. Stop trying to extinguish the Zionist dream or at the end you will be left with nothing. I mean NOTHING. Make peace, not war :)

      Reply to Comment
    32. Palestinian

      A new concept doesn’t equal denying a myth .I deny your myths (beliefs) you came up with a false concept.
      Whats my interest in considering Jews in Palestine Palestinians ?!
      Show us the deeds , prove it ! Lets take every single piece of land , house and village.Zionists bought hundreds of villages? ! was it before or after they bombed them ? The burglar bought his loot earlier :S The Negev belongs to the natives , the Bedouins whom Israel offered 10% of original area…. Peace can only exist when we take our rights back , till then stop playing the “anti-Semitism victims “in front of the world.We have the right to fight till we defeat the colonizer.

      Reply to Comment
    33. Bosko

      @Palestinian – We can show the deeds to the lands that the Zionists purchased from the late 19th century. There is no need to show deeds for the crown lands like the Negev. Those lands were owned neither be Jews nor Arabs. The beduins owned no lands, they were nomads and they certainly have no deeds. By the way, Israel has not deprived the Beduins, they still live where they lived. Many of them even choose to serve in the IDF. They are good loyal soldiers. They are good people.
      Oh and I haven’t played any antisemitism card, I just proved to you that the Arab people never considered Jews to be Arabs. Otherwise, they would have treated their Jews much better than they treated them overall.
      Last but not least, if you want to fight then fight. But then don’t complain if we fight back.

      Reply to Comment
    34. Palestinian

      So if we prove the ownership of any property we shall take it back ? is that what you are saying ? Crown land ….you mean land under the illegal British mandate ? from one burglar to another ….the Palestinian bedouins ? ever heard of Al Araqib ,the Bedouin village that was demolished I dunno how mant times … the ongoing land theft in the Negev ?the mass demonstrations among the Bedouins.. how many Bedouins serve in the Army (in order to live in a country that discriminates against them) ? Druze and Bedouins either serve at checkpoints and borders or in kitchens …..bcz they will always be the “other”
      You refuse to accept that Arab Jews are Arabs , you made it clear several times no need to repeat it over and over bcz I will keep emphasizing that fact , we are stuck in (yes , no) dead argument.Time will prove who is gonna win.

      Reply to Comment
    35. Bosko

      @Palestinian – “So if we prove the ownership of any property we shall take it back ?”
      Nope, because we had to shed our blood to defend ourselves from you while you were trying to take our property.
      @Palestinian – “You refuse to accept that Arab Jews are Arabs”
      I don’t have to refuse to accept it. The Rabs themselves refused to accept it for 1400 years.
      @Palestinian – “Time will prove who is gonna win”
      Well … It depends on what you mean by the word “win”. If you think that you will be able to destroy the Zionist Dream – self determination for the Jewish people then you better pray that it won’t happen. Because if it will look like happening then nobody will end up winning.
      If on the other hand, you mean some compromise solution followed by peace, then we will both win.

      Reply to Comment
    36. Palestinian

      You had to shed few drops of your precious blood to steal whats not yours , burglars sometimes get into fights with the house owners.

      1400 …are you referring to Muslims or Arabs (Muslims , Christians and Jews )?

      Win means to take our full rights back fullstop.

      Reply to Comment
    37. weinstein henry

      @ Dear Taoist
      First point, all I ever written recently on +972 was in the wake of the Israel’s social protests, in response to their detractors from both sides, activists & Hasbara. I’m not under-educated about the occupation; simply, I think there are a lot of elephants in the room, not only the occupation. And I care about the Israeli people & the Palestinian people; I’m not fighting against one people, but for a less worse future.
      Second point, the meaning in 2011 of ‘Zionism’. Well, I think we are in a post-Zionism era, and J14 protesters too to my opinion.
      You should ask Akiva Orr what he thinks about the definition “Zionism is a colonial power”, and if for him it’s as simple as that. For instance, it seems to me that his parents came in Tel Aviv to find a shelter, because of Nazism. Moreover it seems to me what Akiva Orr said about England, i.e the great evil in the Middle-East BUT the only one country in Europe to fight against Nazism in 1940-41, indicates he is very aware that in politics things are not so simple.
      Third point, I think Israelis & Palestinians have to get out of Nominalism to get real and be able to talk to each other. I know, it sounds a bit like John Lennon’s Imagine. What I mean is that the Zionists vs Anti-Zionists endless propaganda war is designed to prevent progressive Israelis and progressive Palestinians to interact & confront their views in a positive way to imagine a less worse future for all.
      For instance, if you promote a One-State solution, you will have to convince all the Israelis that you are serious and fair about a bi-national democratic state based on freedom of speech & freedom of association & civil rights, and that your One-State solution is not just a slogan. No Israeli would accept to live under the Islamic rule of Hamas, neither me; and it has nothing to do with Zionism & the settlements.
      Last point, I think it’s stupid in 2011 to fight the Israeli Far Right on an ideological battleground chosen by them, the so-called De-Legitimization Challenge, i.e the de-legitimization of the state of Israel because of Zionism.
      Whatever one think about Israel in 2011, Israel is a powerful state, a dynamic society with an amazing culture. It’s also a military superpower ruled by proto-fascists, I agree with you on this. So careful with what you say against Zionism, because in Israel it means you want to destroy their country. Hasbara like it!
      What I think is stupid beyond stupidity is to put all the Israelis in the Zionist Entity’s Box – a bit like if all the French were accused to be supporters of Sarkozy by anti-Sarkozy non-French activists -, and to demand to all of them to say they are ashamed to be what they are, Israelis, asking them in the same time to support any act of terror against them.
      No people on earth would accept this blackmail, and no people on earth would accept to give up his freedom & self-determination for peanuts.

      Reply to Comment
    38. Bosko

      @Palestinian – You will never get the land that Israel is on because it is our land. But you can dream about it.

      Reply to Comment
    39. Bosko

      I must say. To me a fascist government is a government that refuses to concede power when their term is up.
      Netanyahu’s government is a right wing government but it is not fascist because they will leave government when they will be voted out.

      Reply to Comment
    40. weinstein henry

      @ Bosko
      Just a few notes:
      1. For me Taoist’s “proto-fascists” means not far from / dangerously close to fascism.
      2. Israel 2011 looks like a very opaque military & business system.
      3. For an European, what is considered right wing in Israel would be considered far right, and in some cases extreme far right, in Europe, and I’m not teasing you.
      For instance, our Front National, considered far right in France, would be on the left of Kadima on the Israeli political landscape.
      4. To be fair, same observation with the Republican Party in the USA: in Europe, it would be considered far right, and Tea Party extreme far right.
      5. Far right is fascism in the making; fascism is not the suppression of elections, but the suppression of any political opposition.
      6. Fascism in Europe was a reaction against Communism: instead of the dictature of the workers, the dictature of the local ruling class

      Reply to Comment
    41. Ben Israel

      Mr Orr- you STILL did not answer my question. You simply said that after the defeat of the Egyptian and Iraqi armies, Israel didn’t face “any miltary threat”. Really? Maybe at the moment they didn’t but what would be in the future, considering that the Arab countries refused to make peace. However, you still didn’t tell me who was going to take control of the territories evacuated. There had just been a bloody war. You were there. Did ANYONE say “well, let’s just pull out and hope for the best?”, especially considering how the partition lines had so many choke points, in the Galil, Lod-Ramla, Jerusalem, the Negev that the Arabs could easily use to split the country into pieces.
      Of course BG wanted to expand the territories. By refusing to make peace the Arabs played right into his hands.

      Reply to Comment
    42. Bosko

      @weinstein Henry – I am willing to accept what you say as a well meaning observation, even though I don’t agree with it. Why don’t I agree with the European standard of critiquing Israel? Because the Europeans easily forget that Israel has been fighting an existential war for nearly 100 years. And Europeans tend to forget how they behaved when they had been in the middle of terrible wars.
      By the way, let me pre-empt you if you will cast doubt about Israel’s war being existential. It is so even though Israel’s army is strong, the combination of terrorism, modern rockets backed up by countries like Iran and now maybe Egypt, could conceivably cause Israel’s society to implode. Of course, if that were to happen, I wouldn’t give two cents for the life expectancy of the rest of the Middle East either. Unfortunately though even such prospects wouldn’t deter some fanatics fro making such a scenario real.

      Reply to Comment
    43. To Ben-Israel

      You write that “The Arab countries refused to make peace” with Israel.

      It seems you never heard of the BANDUNG CONFERENCE of April 1955.

      In that conference – attended by leaders of 29 African and Asian nations – representing about one quarter of Humanity – President Nasser of Egypt declared to the entire world: ” I am willing to make peace with Israel – provided it abides by the UN Partition resolution and lets the Palestinians set up their state.”

      Nasser’s revolution (in 1952)overthrew King Faruk’s monarchy in Egypt. He was the most popular leader of the entire Arab world in the 20th century. His politics (unifying the entire Arab world) were supported by most Arab people (Though not by some of their leaders) peace with Nasser meant peace with the Arab world – especially with the Palestinians who adored him.

      Ben-Gurion rejected Nasser’s peace offer.
      It meant that he had to give up the territories
      the UN allocated the Palestinians that he annexed by his secret pact with King Abdallah of T-J in 1948.

      BG had 2 options:

      1.Hand back the Palestinian territories he annexed in 1948 and get a stable peace with the Arab world – and the Palestinians.

      2.Keep the annexed Palestinian territories and remain in a state of war with the Arab world.

      He chose the second.

      Had he chosen the first there would have been
      no Israeli-Egyptian war in 1956 (“Suez War”), no 1967 (“Six days war”) war, and no 1973 (“Yom Kippur”) war.

      BG’s choice created the stage for these three wars. Ben-Gurion – not Nasser – is responsible for the continuation of the Israeli-Arab conflict and for these wars.

      AKI ORR

      Reply to Comment
    44. Ben Israel

      Mr Orr-
      Considering that the West Bank at the time of the Bandung Conference was under Arab (i.e. Jordanian) rule, what did Nasser do in order to set up a Palestinian state at least on those territories, not to mention Gaza which was under Egyptian control at the time?
      Also, what steps did he take in order to convince the Israel public that he wanted peace?
      I just read James Calvert’s book on Sayyid Qutb, the Theologist of the Jihad. He was executed in 1966 by Nasser. The book, incidently, is sympathetic to Qutb, but does not gloss over his virulent antisemitism. He points out how Nasser was a repressive tyrant. He used terror to suppress political dissidents. Taking this into consideration I don’t see how one could really think that Nasser wanted peace with Israel on any terms. He makes a public declaration at Bandung. That is not what is important, it’s what he did to IMPLEMENT his supposed peace initiative that matters, which , in the end was nothing. He made the arms deal with the USSR which inflamed the arms race and which directly lead to the Mivtzah Kadesh-Sinai War of 1956.

      Reply to Comment
    45. Bosko

      Yes Nasser was a great peace maker. His army used poison gas in Yemen. BG was not stupid. He knew he could trust Nasser as far as he could throw him. Not very far.
      By the way, if Nasser had such a great concern for Palestinian Arab welfare, why didn’t he let the Gazans establish their own state as a first step in Gaza? (Gaza was under the control of Egypt in 1955). Why didn’t he pressure Jordan into allowing the Palestinian state in the West Bank which was under the control of Jordan then? Israel held only a very small portion of the Arab part of the partition, prior to 1967. But Nasser only pressured Israel. Give us a break …

      Reply to Comment
    46. Ben Israel

      Bosko-
      Note how the pro-Arab “progressive” apologists always come down to “if only Israel would make one more concession, there would be peace”. Then it was “if only they withdrew to the 1947 partition lines, if only they had recognized a Palestinian state then, today if only would agree to pull back to the pre-67 lines, etc, etc”.
      BTW-Mr Orr didn’t mention the “right of return” of the Palestinian refugees which was a MAJOR issue in the 1950′s. So it was not just a matter of pulling back to the partition lines, there was also the small matter of bringing back hundreds of thousands of hostile refugees. Minor detail and it is still the ultimate weapon against Isarel!

      Reply to Comment
    47. Bosko

      @Ben Israel – They are infinitely patient, indulgent and forgiving about what Arabs say and do. They always find an excuse for them …
      Conversely, they are stern, demanding and critical of Israel, no matter what the circumstances. It would almost be comical if it wouldn’t be serious.
      They cause people like me to lurch further and further to the right. And I was all in favour of Rabin and his Oslo initiative. But not in hindsight. I think it was a huge mistake but I accept that Rabin meant well.

      Reply to Comment
    48. TO BEN-ISRAEL

      President Nasser was a young officer in the Egyptian army that attacked Palestine in 1948.

      This force was surrounded by the IDF in Faluja in the Negev in 1948. During the talks between the IDF officers and the surrounded Egyptians
      Nasser asked Yeruham Cohen (whom I knew) :
      “How did you get rid of the British ? ” Cohen told me this himself.
      In his book “Philosophy of our revolution” Nasser wrote:”We were in Palestine but our hearts were in Egypt. The real war was in Egypt” (against the British. A.O.)

      Britain organized the 1948 war fot TWO purposes:
      1) To foil the UN Partition of Palestine and re-assert British rule there.
      2) To side-track the anti-British protests by the Iraqi and Egyptian masses from their anti-British direction into an anti-Israeli direction. Many in the M-E understood this.

      Nasser was an atheist aiming to free the Arab world from Islamic political domination.
      The MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD tried FIVE times to assasinate him. That is why he banned them and executed their founder – Qutb.

      In the 1950s US and Britain pressurized countries around USSR to join anti-Soviet pacts. In Europe they created NATO. In the East they created SEATO. But there was a gap in the Near East. The rulers of Turkey and
      Iran were ready to join but Ehypt refused.
      This left a gap that the US tried to fill by using Israel to pressurize Egypt. The IDF attacked Gaza (under Egyptian control) and when Nasser asked the US for weapons they told him: “Join the anti-Soviet pact and we’ll give you weapons against Israel” but he was afraid such a pact will make him subservient to the US and refused. Finally he asked the USSR to give him weapons knowing they will not rule the M-E. This broke the Western monopoly on arms supply to the M-E and outraged the West.
      In 1956 Nasser asked the US for a loan to build the Asuan High Dam. This would double crops and provide much cheap electricity. The US said: Join the anti-Soviet pact and we’ll give you the money. Nasser refused and nationalized the Suez Canal to use its revenue for building the dam. Britain and France (who owned the Canal) decided to topple him. They secretly conspired with Ben-Gurion – who deceived his own cabinet by sigining a secret pact with Britain and France. He used Peres as his agent to hide all from Golda Meir who was Foreign Minister….and knew nothing…
      BG attacked Egypt on 29/10/1956 and when Nasser tried to stop Israel the British and French armies landed in the Suez Canal allegedly “To separate the combatants and secure the peace”. But Britain, France and Israel hid this also from the US.
      When President Eisenhower saw this he forced all three conspirators to withdraw. Nasser was the political winner of this war.
      His presige peaked.
      Israel was once seen again acting as a lackey of Imperialism.

      Nasser made other efforts to reach peace with Israel. Once he gave a famous interview to Maurice Orbach, a Jewish Labour MP from London.
      offering BG peace.
      BG rejected all such efforts and caused the dismissal of Maurice Orbach. His daughter Sussie, the famous London feminist psychiatris who treated princess Diana can verify this.

      AKI

      Reply to Comment
    49. Click here to load previous comments

    LEAVE A COMMENT

    Name (Required)
    Mail (Required)
    Website
    Free text

© 2010 - 2014 +972 Magazine
Follow Us
Credits

+972 is an independent, blog-based web magazine. It was launched in August 2010, resulting from a merger of a number of popular English-language blogs dealing with life and politics in Israel and Palestine.

Website empowered by RSVP

Illustrations: Eran Mendel