23 comments for ”Flotilla report: So how did the activists die?“

    
  1. @Yossi

    A good article and a refreshing contrast to the vitriol expressed in Avi’s “Shit-bow diplomacy” article last week

    However, there is one very important omission:

    The summary to the report states that the committee was “not acting as a Court and was not asked to adjudicate on legal liability. Its findings and recommendations are therefore not intended to attribute any legal responsibilities.”

    Despite this statement, Palmer et al (in reality, Palmer and Uribe) sought fit to declare the blockade “legal”.

    Even as they did, they failed to reference any aspect of international law that supported this claim

    Simply put, the report is a whitewash

  2. 
  3. SICK, calling response 2 descending, purposeful assassins ‘AN ECSTASY OF VIOLENCE’ on the part of the victims! Exercise of half one’s mental capacities coupled with an even smaller percentage of whatever humanity might be brought 2 bear in analysis, reveals who stews in the ecstasy of violence even still. Good reasons asserted, ok he says critically, fine by him, sure you’re right! Finding comfort in ANY legal assertion from the criminal URIBE, just proof of willfully forcing ‘conclusions’ which have absolutely no basis in law. Just a screw-up at ‘company level?’ You IN da company, it was a screw-up, monumentally, BUT ALSO WILLFUL MURDER PLANNED WITH MALICE AFORETHOUGHT! You condemned forever as purposeful shaper of continuing falsehoods 4 public consumption, not a seeker after truth at all, completely unimportant, extraneous 2 your real work, assuaging the consciences of killers & their lazy supporters & subjects!

  4. 
  5. Phil, you missed the point, while it wasn’t the Palmer Commissions business to “adjucate” anything, as a commission isn’t a Court quite obviously, they did have to get into the question whether the naval blockade of Gaza is legal under international law, because Israels position was based on the notion of legitimate defense, which would authorize Israeli forces to stop and board any ship that sailes to Gaza. Thus whether or not Israel can rightfully invoke “legitimate defense” can’t possibly be answered without looking at whether the blockade is rightfull under international law. If it is, than Mavi Marmara captain, crew and passengers were trespassing.
    You may not find the commissions reasoning convincing, I do (being a lawyer myself).

  6. 
  7. @Rika,

    It appears that you did not read my comment completely, as your response bears no relation to what I wrote

    You are correct in saying that the question of whether or not Israel can rightfully invoke “legitimate defense” can’t possibly be answered without looking at whether the blockade is rightfull under international law

    However, and as I have already pointed out, Palmer et al “failed to reference any aspect of international law that supported this claim”

    To repeat, there is not a single reference to any article of international law in this report. You state you are a lawyer, so I am surprised that this fact poses no problem for you.

    It is, in effect, the same as pronouncing a guilty verdict on an individual without informing them of the offence they have committed or the law they have broken..

    As such, the findings of the report can only be convincing to those who already had their minds made up.

  8. 
  9. Phil, the upside is that by stating that the blockade is legal, the Palmer Committee has motivated Turkey to test this assertion in the ICJ. It will be interesting to see what happens to the legal standing of the blockade when real legal professionals are asked to review its legality.

  10. 
  11. Many months ago I heard a good radio interview with a Canadian/Palestinian who had been on the boat and witnessed the events. He basically said: “I knew that we were in for it when they [the motivated activists who were waiting to attack the soldiers] overpowered a soldier and brought him below deck. Israel fucking destroyed Lebanon the last time their soldiers were kidnapped!”

  12. 
  13. And why was an elite combat unit used for this operation anyway? It seems more like a job for mishmar ha-gvul (the border police)….

  14. 
  15. @Fil – the name is “Ami”.
    .
    And I fail to see what vitriol my post has that Yossi’s doesn’t. The fact that I said they were “thugs” and Yossi only called them “goons”? Come on, Fil…

  16. 
  17. Well, Ami, the next time masked men break into your house and you pick up the kitchen cleaver to fend them off, you can argue whether that makes you a “thug” or a “goon.”

  18. 
  19. Despites Israel’s hasbara the international community still claims that the seige on Gaza is illegal. You can only put a soverign country under seige during times of war. Israel is neither in a war with Gaza nor is Gaza a soverign state. However, if Israel did have a blockade that only prohibited weapons from intering Gaza then maybe the international community wouldn’t find it so illegal but we must remember that Israel also prohibits tea, toys, shoes, paper, a large percentage of medical supplies, spices, cabbage, macaroni and chease, and concrete to Gaza.

    As for the attack on the flotilla I couldn’t have said it any better Yossi (:… But I would like to mention that the flotilla attack and the Gaza massacre is what turned the international community against Israel. I live in the US and very few pity Israel anymore. Lately the comments have become very sympathetic to Palestine as well as describing Israel as “radical, racist” and my favorite “the Jewish Iran.”

    Keep up the good writing!

  20. 
  21. @aristeides – you’re right. That’s a perfectly legitimate comparison. Don’t know why I didn’t think of it earlier. It’s the simple ones, the superficial crappy ones that are always right under you nose, innit! ;)

  22. 
  23. It says a lot about the reputation of Israel and the IDF that people were not surprised by the events on the Mavi Marmara.

    Let’s remind ourselves, this is Israel’s supposedly “elite” commando force.

    Let’s do a thought experiment.

    If the SAS or the Navy Seals were required to deal with civilians who did not possess firearms and who were confined to a boat, and the operation turned out the way the Mavi Marmara did.

    Would anyone seriously contend that this had been a successful mission?

    They would be ridiculed, public outrage and a government enquiry would follow, and they would rightly be described as incompetent.

  24. 
  25. Grant for the sake of argument that the Israeli position is legitimate, they had the right to intercept the ship. Say they’re in the position of police at a roadblock, stopping cars to see if they have contraband. Say that the passengers in the car resisted the police and the police had the right to subdue them.

    Granting all that, when the police have the passengers UNRESISTING on the ground, bleeding, with broken bones, and they then execute them with gunshots to the back of the head, there’s only one word for it. Murder. Yet Israel not only refuses to indict these murderers, it pins medals on them.

  26. 
  27. @ Ami

    Apologies for misspelling your name, it was a genuine mistake..

    However, doing the same with mine can only be described as petulant

    If you cannot take criticism, why do you do what you do?

    As regards Yossi’s use of the word “goon”, it appeared to me to be intended as a tongue-in-cheek remark

  28. 
  29. I do not know why people of the IHH need to be called “goons”. It is the language of propaganda and unworthy of 972mag. It is rather over the top in every sense of the word.
    .
    Oxford dictionary goon (noun)
    .
    1 a silly, foolish, or eccentric person.
    .
    2 (us) a bully or thug, especially a member of an armed or security force.
    .
    3 (gb) a guard in a German prisoner-of-war camp during the Second World War.

  30. 
  31. @Phil – apology accepted.
    .
    I can deal with the criticism. It’s the patronizing vitriol that tends to make me “bite back”.
    .
    @directrob – i think that definition fits a small part of the people that were on the Marmara.

  32. 
  33. The IDF ignores High Court orders for decades with impunity. Now immediate command contravenes a battle order with impunity. There was no overriding cause to do this. The IDF, above the law, now becomes above military command as appllied. This should be a clear warning sign. The rule of law, flauted externally, is flauted internally as well. Raw military politics controls.

  34. 
  35. @Directorb
    “I do not know why people of the IHH need to be called “goons”. It is the language of propaganda and unworthy of 972mag. It is rather over the top in every sense of the word”
    .
    You are kidding us, right? That description of the IHH is the language of propaganda, you say. Do you apply the same standard when various posters on these blogs describe us few Zionists who take the time to post our opinions here in even more derogatory terms? Is that propaganda too? Why do I smell a whiff of double standards in that sentence of yours?

  36. 
  37. Aresteides: “when the police have the passengers UNRESISTING on the ground, bleeding, with broken bones, and they then execute them with gunshots to the back of the head …”

    It is my understanding that one cannot use a single word but a rather longish phrase “The circumstances of their death are troubling and require further clarifications.” For example, only some were shot in the rear of the head.

    To give another example, “unresisting” is actually an interpretation. In Rodney King case, the accused policemen successfully argued that King was twitching and that was a form of resistance.

    However, would LADP follow the behavior of IDF, to wit, refuse to supply all available evidence concerning the “troubling circumstances” of the arrest of Rodney King, I think that they would be in contempt and the head of the department could be in jail until he would comply. (King was indeed tased, bleeding, with broken bones, BUT alive.) Perhaps I am wrong, luckily, in USA police complies with court orders.

    I actually do not understand why Turkey is not prosecuting the murders (it really seems that there is enough material for murder indictments). I assume that Israel will be (a) in contempt and (b) sovereign. Then Turkey could try to enforce contempt penalties in various countries (sizing assets and individuals). But I do not know if there are international rules concerning compliance with requests for evidence etc.

  38. 
  39. I believe it is precisely these murders that Turkey intends to take to the Hague. It is just a shame that the US, whose citizen Dogan’s murder is perhaps the most provable, has not taken the lead on this, is in fact obstructing the attempts of his family to find justice.

    (Just as a point of comparison, the city of Chicago recently settled a civil lawsuit filed by the family of a man who died in custody, having been legitimately arrested, legitimately subdued – because the police, seeing him in obvious physical distress, took him to the jail instead of the hospital. This is the civilized standard. Shooting the subdued prisoner in the head is so far from this as to be indefensible. Even thugs have a right not to be murdered.)

  40. 
  41. Then there is the death in British custody of Iraqi citizen Baha Mousa, in which one soldier has now been convicted and the prosecutions of several others belatedly promised, after a coverup that looks trivial next to Israel’s coverup of the Mavi Mamara crimes.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/sep/08/baha-mousa-report-british-soldiers

  42. 
  43. “Israel’s overall closure of the Gaza Strip, still in place today”. (from the article)

    But Gaza has 2 land borders – and the Rafah crossing point to Egypt has been open for free passage for some weeks now.

    Israel is not – and never was – solely responsible for Gaza’s connection to the rest of the world and the inference that the people of Gaza are ,in some way, imprisoned, is a distortion of the truth.

  44. 
  45. I would just like to point out that Palmer report’s finding is merely an opinion, and by a bunch of rank amateurs at that. Nobody on this panel had any expertise in international criminal or humanitarian law. They also spent the whole time in their ivory tower reading only whatever guff was given them.
    By comparison the UNHRC fact-finding mission had a former judge from the ICJ and a former prosecutor from a UN Special Court backed up by a secretariat which included experts in international law. It also got out to see the Mavi Marmara and to meet as many witnesses as would testify before it. (It was not the Mission’s fault that nobody from Israel took up the offer.)Nevertheless their opinion is still only that, an unenforceable opinion;it is not a ruling. For that we need Turkey to go to the ICJ (or perhaps even the ICC.)
    For all that this Panel was an exercise in futility which has told us little beyond showing how gullible Palmer was in taking Turkel at face value, it is not a whitewash. It has condemned the actions of the Israeli soldiers, and quite forcefully too. It has embarrassed Israel on the first occasion it has ever allowed outsiders to comment on its activities. It has not given Netanyahu the opportunity to gloat that the Hutton report gave to Tony blair. For this we should be grateful.As to its absurd opinion (a classic case of garbage in garbage out) don’ t worry about it. It has no legal standing anymore than mine or yours. Surely nobody believes Israel would have abandoned the blockade if Palmer had said it was illegal. But in the meantime it seems to have stiffened Turkey’s resolve to go The Hague, and that is well worth having.



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